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<US_Male> y
<StayFresh> FreeTrade i think we should let the UN disarme veryone
<StayFresh> including the US
<RustyFord> Tim hahaha =) i was wondering that as well
<unfounded> yeah
<FreeTrade> But for the interests of peace in the world, we have too many people who have nukes already.
<unfounded> we're doing all we can on that front
<unfounded> stop when we can, deal with it when we can't
<StafferX> Nonproliferation has been reasonably successful, as witness that Luxembourg, Mexico and Australia are still not nuclear powers.
<unfounded> iran and NK are going to have nukes we need to come to terms with that
<StafferX> On the 'who has nukes?' front, things could always be worse.
<unfounded> NK we could maybe stop
<StayFresh> No one will Disarm until the 5 Nations part of Nuclear Club disarm such as USA, Russia, China, England, France
<unfounded> from getting them
<unfounded> if china really leans on them
<TheTailor> StayFresh, well we can't be war mongers that way, duh.
<surlly> If India and Pakistan can refrain from nuking each other, there is hope
<FreeTrade> Britain US Russia France China should be the only nuclear states.
<unfounded> iran we're hopeless
<StayFresh> freetrade hell no
<StayFresh> i dont trust anyone with nukes
<FreeTrade> And I dont like the idea of Russia China and France having them ;)
<surlly> But I fear we'll see the use of nukes in our lifetimes
<unfounded> FT i think we should replace france on the sec council with india
<RustyFord> or india and pakistan
<StafferX> Nukes are scary, but you always have to consider the delivery method. Building a warhead is tough and expensive, but so is building a goddamn ballistic missile to carry it.
<RustyFord> heh
<FreeTrade> Surlly I sure hope not.
<US_Male> ideally it would have been just us
<RustyFord> or Israel for that matter
<surlly> Remember, we are well on our way to creating a new series of tactical nuclear bunker bustoers
<StafferX> Pakistan has warheads, but they probably couldn't deliver them very far, and they might have to carry them on a truck.
<unfounded> i have no problem with trading away israel's nukes
<FreeTrade> hehe, Indian/france, it wouldnt make any difference substantially ;)
<RustyFord> and the idea that Saudi Arabia is not pursuing them is ignorant
<FreeTrade> Yeah pakistan and India dont have ICBMS, thankfully
<unfounded> india is awesome
<FreeTrade> but they could.
<unfounded> they don't cause much trouble
<US_Male> Pakistan launches their nukes from Yaks
<StafferX> Maybe. If they had a rocketry program.
<StayFresh> North Korea has nukes
<RustyFord> its kind of funny that the end of the cold war would bring the m***ive spread of nuclear technology throughout the world
<unfounded> speak english, and will be on our side when we have spats with china
<surlly> India and Pakistan have medium range missiles
<unfounded> in the future
<US_Male> Yak-based nuclear weapons
<unfounded> yak based heh
<StayFresh> its crazy how Iran's getting nukes and they cannot be stopped
<StayFresh> Iran is on a point of no return
<surlly> A typical 300 Kt warhead is about 5 feet long and 21 inches in diamter. And that is including the re entry vehicle
<StayFresh> Iran cannot be stopped militarly, USA doesnt have the troops to stop iran
<FreeTrade> Israel should get rid of theirs, a 6 million population country having 2-300 medium range nukes ? Talk about overkill. and its harder to tell Iran to not have them when Israel does.
<hirogen> damn u guyz should have seen a dispatches documentry on channel 4 in uk, a person filming in n koea, my god that palce is so poor, and the army r a bunch of ****s
<unfounded> stayfresh yeah
<RustyFord> the spread of nuclear weapons only ensures their use that much more in the future, with the m***ive spread that is going on now, there is really no hcance to reverse that trend
<FreeTrade> Its harder to make a moral argument.
<unfounded> yeah FT i have no problem trading away theirs
<unfounded> of course they'll never ever ever go for it
<FreeTrade> It would be nice to have a nuclear free Middle east.
<StayFresh> if there were no nukes, there would be world war 3 much quicker
<FreeTrade> Well I would of agreed with you 20 years ago
<unfounded> nice ND's up by 11
<StayFresh> if no nukes would of been created, the US would of waged world war 3 against soviet russia long ago
<FreeTrade> but with the fall of the Soviet Union, I am not too worried about ww3.
<surlly> StayFresh: I dont think so
<StayFresh> FreeTrade, Actually WW3 has been kick started after USSR fell
<unfounded> yeah FT
<FreeTrade> ITs these ***ymetrical warfare tactics which are the problem today.
<StafferX> Remember when Israel resolved to nuke anyone (i.e. Baghdad) who threw a nonconventional (i.e. Scud) at them, back when we invaded Iraq?
<DStewart> StayFresh, you thik it's a matter of numerical troop strength?
<unfounded> but it makes the discharge of one nuke more likely
<StayFresh> how did WW1 start? with small conflicts
<unfounded> since its more likely to get into the wrong hands
<StayFresh> WW3 is same
<DStewart> Less than 10% of our troops are in Iraq now.
<FreeTrade> Terrrorists pose the greatest risk to the USA today.
<StayFresh> 21st Century is alot unsafer than 20th Century during Cold War.
<unfounded> stayfresh WW1 had a bunch of great powers
<unfounded> no great powers are gonna fight again ever
<FreeTrade> No country militarily poses a winning risk. So why would they launch a war which they cant win. We still have MAD wit Russia.
<StafferX> My friend Noah was over there at the time, and I asked him if he thought the Israelis would support their government nuking someone that way, and he said, "Without question."
<StayFresh> unfounded because of NUKES
<unfounded> well maybe once and then we'll all be dead
<US_Male> I don't think Israel has ever acknowledged having nukes, much less threaten to nuke specificaly
<FreeTrade> But Russia and the US now have no reason to go to war.
<unfounded> yeah
<StayFresh> only reason theres no WW3 is cuz of nukes
<DStewart> USM, you're right.
<StafferX> ??? US.. hang on.
<RustyFord> DStewart as i said earlier he needs to get a clue about warfare
<StayFresh> if no nukes were created, we d be on to ww5 now
<US_Male> ok hanging on ...
<StafferX> Oh, screw it, just google 'israel nuclear.'
<FreeTrade> US, but they were proved to have them and it has been acknowleged by proof, they simply wont admit they have them even though the proof is incontrovertible.
<surlly> StayFresh: In case you have not notices, there have been pleanty of wars in the last 50 years
<StayFresh> surlly plenty of wars ?
<StayFresh> like what
<StayFresh> gulf war?
<StafferX> OH, I see what you mean.
<US_Male> StafferX: I know they most lkley have them
<StayFresh> thats not even a war
<DStewart> Staffer, it's not about whether Israel has nukes; most likely they do.
<FreeTrade> and it was released by an Israeli with a lot of details.
<StayFresh> fighting third world countries is not war
<DStewart> But they made an explicit threat? Don't think so.
<surlly> Geez, do I even dignify that with a response?
<US_Male> StafferX: I'm saying I don't think Israel has ever acknowledged having nukes, much less threaten to nuke specificaly
<StafferX> http://www.carolmoore.net/nuclearwar/israelithreats.html
<FreeTrade> But the world has known it for some time, they got most thier stuff from South Africa.
<surlly> Vietname was fighting a 3rd world country?
<StafferX> True!
<US_Male> although they probably do have nukes
<StafferX> No, they've come clean.
<FreeTrade> US, they have never threatened anyone.
<StayFresh> vietnam was a third owrld country
<StayFresh> aint even considered a war
<StayFresh> there has been no major war since ww2
<FreeTrade> I think they feel that if anyone anhilated Israel they would nuke them from their subs.
<StayFresh> mini wars dont count
<StafferX> They didn't exactly threaten anyone, they said they'd respond if they got a bio-warfare scud flipped at them or something.
<surlly> I guess you didint know about the active support the Soviet Union gave them
<StayFresh> support is not enough to make it a major war
<DStewart> Staffer, who wouldn't---whether they had nukes or not?
<surlly> Or Korea and the Chinese
<FreeTrade> Which of course we wouldnt want to see them anhilated.
<US_Male> it's a chosen strategy, to not acknowledge nukes
<US_Male> now I do wonder if they have nuke subs -- I don't see why they would not
<StayFresh> Israel has around 300 Nukes and all pointed at it's enemies
<StafferX> I just thought it was a funny image - we're halfway to Baghdad, and all of a sudden it looks like the sun is rising in the north.
<FreeTrade> But I am not sure they need bombs for that, we would attack any country which nuked israel or hit them with WMD.
<StayFresh> and it's allies too
<DStewart> USM, they don't. They have everything but the nuclear material. It's a HUGE decoy. Better than Saddam's!
<StafferX> And Israel says, "We WARNED you!"
<US_Male> hehehe
<RustyFord> nah there was no Korean war, no vietnam war, no invasion of Panama, no Gulf war, no Afghan war, no gulf war2, no war in Yugoslavia.... nah no "real wars" I geuss all those people dying in all those wars didn't really die either
<DStewart> But less dangerous, because Israel's never had a psychotic dictator as its head of state.
<StayFresh> rustyford all those mini wars "vs third world defnesless countries" are a joke
<StayFresh> those aint even wars
<US_Male> if I ran a small nation I'd be much more likely to have nuke subs
<StayFresh> real wars are vs World Powers. like England, Germany, Russia, China
<FreeTrade> US, South Africa got rid of their nukes, Do you want to know where the material went ?
<DStewart> Uh, what wars have we waged against defenseless third world countries?
<FreeTrade> Ill give you one guess :)
<StayFresh> when the U.S goes to war with China then you can say "thats the war"
<US_Male> that way, no matter what happens at home you can still nuke ppl
<StafferX> Israel has publically admitted that they have nuclear weapons.
<RustyFord> third world defnesless countries" are a joke <--- yeap all those people dying real funny to laugh at hahahah hohohoh yeh man, again when you get a clue let me know
<US_Male> FT: where ?
<FreeTrade> US, Israel.
<surlly> I dont think SA ever succsessfully completed a nuclear weapon before abandoning the program
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