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<Pickle> Oh well. At least this part of the country will be on the receiving end of most of the subsidies for biodiesel, E85, and the rest of that ****. I pity the rest of you ****ers, though.
<Herzen> infact their more 'atomic' then anything else
<KoBushi> <Estuary> kobushi - nuclear will be a big segment of it, yes. i think our generation will have to be integrated with transportation via either hydrogen (with a VERY optimistic view) or an electric system that doesn't yet exist.
<Estuary> hydrogen locomotion exists, but there is no real system to make it practicable, nor is there likely to be anytime soon.
<Estuary> SYSTEM
<CryArvach> Herzen...that s the problem
<Estuary> again, you're willfully twisting my words to suit your slander against me.
<CryArvach> old nukes are simple
<Estuary> i'll ask you to stop it so we can have a reasonable discussion.
<CryArvach> and dirty
<KoBushi> Estuary the SYSTEMS don't exist because the TECHNOLOGIES aren't up to par/don't exist.
<KoBushi> ie: electric only transportation... sure it exists... but none exists that could hope to replace gasoline
<KoBushi> hydrogen: it exists, but no technology exists hat would make it affordable
<CryArvach> electric has to come from somewhere...
<suna> simple if you don't understand it, just following directions i guess sure
<CryArvach> Kobushi..yet
<suna> like how most americans can 'build a computer'
<Estuary> 1. "not up to par" is not equal to "doesn't exist" so discard that fallacy immediately 2. nowhere did i put "faith" in any of this. stop twisting my words.
<suna> my *** they can build a computer, they just plug in some wires
<Pickle> We produce both oil and crops, which means that all this "alternative energy" **** really helps us. Because you still need oil to make E85, but you also need crops, which of course will need to be subsidized for E85 to ever be a viable fuel source for the forseeable future.
<suna> etc etc
<KoBushi> Estuary yes up to par IS equal to "doesn't exist"
<Pickle> Then there are all the ethanol plants that will need to be built... Here.
<KoBushi> because there isn't a technology that's feasable for what you want to do.
<Estuary> pickle - i agree that ethanol is idiotic.
<Estuary> kobushi - no its not. not by any stretch of the imagination. keep backpeddling.
<CryArvach> brb cleanup...
<Pickle> Estuary: It's not idiotic. It's great.
<KoBushi> Estuary it woul take a different technology wich *DOESN'T EXIST* to make either electric or hyrogen powered cars work.
<Estuary> koBushi - again, hydrogen locomotion exists, but the system to make it practicable enough to displace petroleum locomotion DOESN'T.
<Pickle> It moves the wealth from all you rich city ****ers to those of us out here in the country.
<Estuary> kobushi - that's false.
<KoBushi> Estuary yes, therfor the technology to do it doesn't exist
<KoBushi> A exists, B is required to replace petrolum... B doesn't exist
<L0c0> whoa
<Estuary> kobushi - now you're just getting idiotic.
<L0c0> Texas oilman involved w/ the oil-for-food scandel?
<oax_> texas oilmen are the most ethical people in our society. it cannot be
<suna> it doesn't exist because no rich person wants it to
<KoBushi> Estuary right, unlike you who advocate we make a drastic switch to nonexistant technology
<DStewart> You're using different terms for the same thing.
<suna> it's economics & politics first, technological difficulty a distant second
<Pickle> Economics SHOULD come first.
<L0c0> oax_: haha
<Pickle> Always, in all things.
<L0c0> well, greed knows no nationality
<suna> if all the rich people in the world wanted this to happen, the entire world would be run by solar power.
<Estuary> kobushi - i did no such thing. you're intentionally bull****ting.
<KoBushi> Estuary your like those 800mpg carburetor and 50mpg semi people
<suna> with an uminaginable about of 'power' to spare
<TimothyW-> L0c0 : Enron was involved in the Oil for Food Programme.
<L0c0> TimothyW: but were they part of the bribes/scandel?
<Herzen> Pickle, [14:57] <Herzen> generally I think economy is more important then environment
<Herzen> cheers
<KoBushi> suna until recently it took more energy t make a slar panel than that solar panel produced in it's expected lifespan :P
<Estuary> kobushi - i'm nothing of the sort. you haven't read anything of what i've said with any honesty.
<Herzen> I think that we should develop nuclear power
<Herzen> as an interim solution
<KoBushi> Estuary ys I have, you just kid yourself into think your solution is more reasonable.
<suna> again kobushi, because nobody's spendning any money. you think you could go buy a honda civic getting 38 miles to the gallon if cars wern't popular?
<TimothyW-> L0c0 : I don't remember the little parts but they were part of it.
<pilgrim`> http://thenewsstar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051021/NEWS05/510210334
<Herzen> utnil we get something thats not horribly inefficient and expensive (i.e. wind, biom***, solar)
<suna> you think you'd have brake pads lasting 80k, changing your oil every 15k?
<suna> hell no
<DStewart> Herzen, with some understandings of the term "environment." But we have to live in this thing. Internalizing externalities is pretty important.
<suna> technology ****S without demand
<suna> solar panels are no exception
<suna> if people wanted them
<suna> efficency would skyrocket
<pilgrim`> its PEOPLE!
<KoBushi> suna there will be a demand once they are cost effective.
<L0c0> TImothyW-: well, I think there's a distinct difference between those involved in the program legitimately and those that gave bribes to the Iraqi government and Saddam and his family
<Estuary> kobushi - your solution is absolutely foolish, as its not possible to make a double commitment to both the old and new regimes, but hey, if u think we have the luxery of time, you're entitled to that foolishness.
<KoBushi> just like cars
<Herzen> DStewart, I meant more environmental policy then anything, frankly styming our economy through Kyoto or an equivilent to the American EPA is ridiculous
<suna> i agree
<L0c0> or at least that's how i've understood it
<suna> and i believe it will happen
<suna> just slowly
<DStewart> Loco, some texas oil exec was indicted in oil-for-food, a month or so ago.
<suna> i just don't wanna hear people talk about solar energy being unrealistic PERIOD
<suna> it's unrealistic now based on economic restraints
<DStewart> How's that for indefinite and vague? :)
<suna> it wont' be forever
<suna> and it's nto because people are going to get any damn smarter in the future
<KoBushi> suna right, so basically you are saying "solar will work I just KNOW it wll some day!" :)
<DStewart> All technologies, energy included, go through a stage where they're "unaffordable" as is.
<KoBushi> And yu don't want to hear any facts about thier downsides
<suna> kobushi even with every OUTRAGEOUS limiting ***umption you can imagine
<suna> a solar panel 70kmx70km could power the entire planet
<DStewart> They do need to p*** market tests, and become affordable---in a context of alternatives.
<Estuary> kobushi - you are willfully misrepresenting the argument of others who disagree with you. why ?
<Herzen> DStewart, I agree, and Nuclear power is a clean and safe, and fairly inexpensive solution until more efficient energy technologies arrive =D
<KoBushi> Estuary I am not.
<pilgrim`> let me see, a electric car...it would use acid containing batteries; accidnets would be doubly disfiguring...small and light...accidents doubly fatal...use outragiously poluting factories to build, not designed for the infustructure of American streets, cities repair facilites, fueling and storage...hummmYep...I'll take 20......NOT
<L0c0> LOL...latest poll shows Congress as a whole has an approval rating of 29%. sheesh...next to the scum in congress, Bush looks like a presidential hero
<Estuary> herzen - the up-front costs of nuclear are enormous.
<L0c0> speaking of scum of congress
<Estuary> l0c0 - hah
<L0c0> how 'bout this freshman Senator Tom Coburn
<L0c0> i like this guy
<Estuary> herzen - its expensive to build and continually secure nuclear installations, particularly reactors.
<pilgrim`> nuclear powerd cars. now THAT I would go for!
<DStewart> pilgrim, NMH batteres don't include acid. Electric cars won't be acid batteries.
<DStewart> EV1 is not the future.
<L0c0> taking on Senator Ted Stevens
<L0c0> that guy's got balls
<pilgrim`> DS they blow up ;)
<Herzen> Its inexpensive to run and efficient considering the materials involved
<L0c0> he's for smaller gov't
<DStewart> (Besides, we'll probably skip right past electric cars.)
<DStewart> pilgrim, NMH batteries don't blow up
<DStewart> You could blow one up, but it's not going to do it by itself.
<L0c0> Stevens comes out and gives this "how dare you" speech about how he's got 37yrs...it's not about seniority, it's about doing what's right for the country
<KoBushi> Estuary you're right, your solution is far better... we should mandate the desruction of all vehicles by the end of 2006 wich aren't electric or hydrogen, we should build nuclear plants, and cose all refineries. That'd fix all of our problems.
<L0c0> this Coburn guy from OK has the right idea
<KoBushi> close
<Estuary> kobushi - again i didn't say anything of that sort, but your straw man is handy for making your proposal sensible by comparison.
<suna> i think the 'solution' is what's going to happen
<KoBushi> Estuary how else woul you define a "drastic swich" ?
<suna> once there is a true and current need for a reasonable solution, one will pop up
<L0c0> http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05294/592410.stm
<suna> except it wont' really 'pop up'
<suna> it'll be something that has been discussed for half a century atleast
<suna> and the only difference is some engineers were given some cash
<KoBushi> Estuary my slution is the only reasonable one... it's also the one which is going to happen, but via private enterprise, not governmental mandate.
<Estuary> kobushi - i said we should STOP dumping money into NEW refineries, which are expensive and don't actually created energy capacity, they just dump more captial into a system that we should be moving AWAY from, not being increasingly invested in. you don't get it. you don't even WANT to get it.
<Estuary> kobushi - you think the invisible hand gives a **** about our energy future?
<pilgrim`> I have blown one up ;)
<pilgrim`> Estuary want to know how to reduce cost?
<pilgrim`> really
<KoBushi> Estuary no, but indaviduals give a **** about how much they pay for thier transportation, and energy needs
<TimothyW-> Don't Piss Senator Stevens off.
<L0c0> oil companies started shutting refineries down in the 90s when oil was cheap and it wasn't cost effective to keep so many open (i.e. keeping up higher capacity)
<pilgrim`> not pontificating through your belly button but an honest thing that would help?
<Herzen> I think the invisible hand doesn't 'have' to 'give a ****' about the 'energy future'
<Herzen> because it frankly doesn't ****ing work that way
<pilgrim`> reduce formulation requirements
<Herzen> Estuary, Congrats, Go ****ing read Smith again boi
<Estuary> KoBushi - individuals, and not even private enterprise create large nation-wide systems on their own. Government was designed specifically for that purpose.
<KoBushi> Estuary rofl
<KoBushi> the government didn't create the automobile Estuary, the government didn't create the plethora of gasoline stations that litter the US
<KoBushi> all the governmen did was tax those things and build roads
<pilgrim`> currently refineries need to kep track of and mkae some 20 odd gas formulas (just for cars, not counting other uses) just to meet conflicting gas requirements from state to state
<KoBushi> and then later mandated the automobile and it's fuel
<Estuary> KoBushi - you're ****ing kidding me. the government SUBSIDIZED the auto industry in the most obvious way by constructing a multi-billion dollar interstate system
<Estuary> you think Ford or GM were willing to fund the interstate system. get the **** real.
<KoBushi> Estuary that's not subsidy
<Estuary> yes, it absolutely is
<KoBushi> rofl
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