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<FreeTrade> Initially morale was good, but by year 10, many were more intereted in good weed than killing enemies.
<Hangfire> the NVA/VC tactic of "Hugging" the enemy that is engaging in combat in almost H2H situations meant that the US forces could not ever use "overwhelming force" in their own favour for fear of hitting the enemy
<FreeTrade> And every day from day one morale suffered more.
<US_Male> we did vietnam half-***ed, and you can't do that
<Hangfire> the reason the vietnamese were able to do this was because back then and to this day Vietnam was a jungle ****hole
<pilgrim`> re
<FreeTrade> I have had so many vietnam vet friends.
<pilgrim`> Vietnam: Charlie Foxtrot
<StafferX> Umm, hangfire, I think this little branch of the discussion got started when Kobushi said that we lost in Vietnam because we didn't use overwhelming force. I was disputing that for some of the reasons you're citing.
<FreeTrade> and every story pro war or anti war vet is the same.
<Hangfire> also once you have hugged the enemy they cannot call in fire support in any way
<Hangfire> no airstrikes
<Hangfire> no artillery support
<FreeTrade> Congress wouldnt let us win.
<Hangfire> and you sure as **** can't use armoured cab
<Hangfire> cav
<Hangfire> so what are you left with?
<Hangfire> a kid who went through a 3 month basic who was drafted and doesn't want to be there
<Hangfire> great
<Hangfire> and a weapon, which back then, was complete and utter ****
<StafferX> Kobushi says we didn't use overwhelming force. Hangfire says we couldn't apply the force properly, and that our morale was in the gutter. FT says it was due to lack of Congressional support and lack of clear objectives. I would cite geopolitics in addition.
<pilgrim`> one Dien Ben Phu can ruin your whole colonial ambition, and kill off a lot of unwanted Nazis in the process
<Hangfire> it's a great rifle now
<Hangfire> but back then it was total ***
<StafferX> There were two thousand million reasons why we 'lost' Vietnam.
<FreeTrade> I think honestly Jefferson and MacNamara were frightened.
<FreeTrade> and frightened at what ?
<FreeTrade> Frightened of Russia
<Hangfire> FreeTrade the hugging the enemy thing is what neutralised you lot
<Hangfire> that tactic completely destroyed your ability to bring superior firepower to bear
<pilgrim`> 1975 saw the largest armoured advance take place since El AlAmain
<FreeTrade> They feared an attack in Laos or Hanoi would bring retaliation from Russia. LBH in particular was always paranoid about Russia..
<FreeTrade> Or the soviet Union
<pilgrim`> in a way, larger then the lumbering Russkis on their way to Berlin
<Herzen> LONDON, Ont. - Pat O'Brien, a 12-year member of Parliament known for his strong opposition to abortion and same-*** marriage, is leaving politics.
<Herzen> =/
<KoooK> M16 has always been a nice rifle. but not for poorly trained, nervous conscripts.
<FreeTrade> Our troops were not allowed to pursue forces beyond South Vietnamese borders for some time.
<US_Male> that's why I say it was half-***ed on a political scale
<Herzen> M16 is a nice rifle, for WESTERN militaries
<Herzen> It ain't for guerillas
<Herzen> or poorly trained militaries
<US_Male> back home, it was micro-managed by policy wonks like McNamara
<Herzen> its expensive, and not as rugged as the AK-series
<US_Male> who had no clue
<FreeTrade> I had a friend who did S&D but thats one guy Dropped behind enemy lines setting up claymores and so forth and then retreating back to south vietnamese lines by daylight.
<pilgrim`> M16t works ok for what it is, but when the clearence on the gas port is not up to milspec AND the LC Arsenal rounds fired are high in carbinate in teh formulation of BL(C)-2 used, the combination coupled with a hot tropical enviornment was disaster
<StafferX> You name me one thing that went RIGHT in Vietnam.
<CometBaby> HAMILTON, Ohio - Butler County officials said they're going to start cracking down on undocumented workers in the area. "What we're after and what we're going to come up with is a law in the state of Ohio that has teeth," Combs said.
<CometBaby> "Starting Monday we will impound the vehicles of undocumented workers we pull over. We'll give them a choice: You can stay in jail or go back to Mexico," Fox said. "We'll fly you to the farthest south point in Mexico."
<pilgrim`> but thats just an uninformed guess
<FreeTrade> And we also has a lot of foreign troops who fought with us for at least part of the war.
<FreeTrade> We has south Koreans, Thailanders, I forget all of them. My buddy told me about them. Not huge numbers but enough.
<US_Male> StafferX: well despite all the true things that hae been said -- military people say that we did "win" most of the battles
<CometBaby> This Sheriff down there .. looks like a bulldog .. I think he means business.
<StafferX> True.
<pilgrim`> Comet so if I learn spanish I can get a free flight to CHiapas and a resort. only need to come up with return fare?
<FreeTrade> There was one nationality he said which was extremely effective.
<CometBaby> lol
<pilgrim`> Chinese
<FreeTrade> We did win every major battle. unless you call our final retreat a loss which I suppose it was but it wasnt a battle, it was a desertion.
<US_Male> it's amazing with all that cluster****ing that we won the battles
<CometBaby> here is the url on that story
<CometBaby> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9777714
<pilgrim`> the Chinese (native Viet Chinese, similar to the Scots in N Ireland; been there 500 years) were the best fighters int he S Viet army
<KoooK> battles as defined by the US or battles...
<FreeTrade> If you guys want to see a movie the closest to vietnam fighting, Put away apocalypse now aND ITS GREAT special effects and actors. Put away That movie With Charlie Sheen.
<FreeTrade> Go rent "we were soldiers"
<FreeTrade> According to General Hal Moore, it is the only movie which captures what it was like in battle in vietnam
<CometBaby> They have a big problem in that county in Ohio. I guess that the illegals are committing some bad crimes and the people are getting pretty riled.
<FreeTrade> General moore spent 4 years fighting in vietnam.
<CometBaby> One was raping children and then when they found out who was doing it he ran off to mexico.
<US_Male> my cousin fought in Vietnam
<FreeTrade> Or more.
<US_Male> 6'6" and half-chinese
<FreeTrade> US, I have so may buddies who did.
<pilgrim`> I rememebr a diiscussion with a medic wh worked on a MacSOG team near the DMZ. we were having a quiet talk over peyote tea around a fire in the mountains of New Mexico at the time...
<FreeTrade> One of my friends a redneck white guy from anytown usa, He didnt want to leave because he came to love the south vietnamese people.
<FreeTrade> That was his motive
<FreeTrade> Thats why he wanted to stay
<pilgrim`> Free the place is very special
<FreeTrade> Some just want to win battles and medals.
<FreeTrade> Some people want glory
<CometBaby> FreeTrade .. I suspect he fell in love with one of them in particular ;)
<FreeTrade> This guy just wanted to help the south vietnamese people
<US_Male> lol yeah
<pilgrim`> the people are ancient and tiny and beautiful, th elanguage is sing-song, food is exhotic and good....
<US_Male> CometBaby: a hot one !
<FreeTrade> over a million of them who were summarily executed.
<CometBaby> haha
<pilgrim`> the place has scenery like nowehere else
<pilgrim`> Viet gals are so tiny its like dating a prepubecent
<CometBaby> vietnam is very beautiful and they even have beautiful white sand beaches there
<FreeTrade> Another friend of mine did two tours and in the end didnt believe in the war, but when I talked to him and mentioned things like what about the people we left behind.. That would get to him, He did have feeling about the vietnamese friends he left to their fate.
<bmc> tropical storm alpha in atlantic
<FreeTrade> Well I think its time to patch it up with vietnam and normalize relations.
<bmc> most active hurricane season in recorded history
<FreeTrade> Comet Oh no, he didnt fall in love with one of them
<KoBushi> Cool: http://msnbc.msn.com/id/9777070/
<FreeTrade> Comet, his swift boat was all vietnamese.
<FreeTrade> He was the only american on it.
<FreeTrade> He came to love his men
<FreeTrade> He was the captain.
<CometBaby> I see :)
<US_Male> I felt the same way when we left the Kurds to Saddam's murderous rage after the Gulf War
<pilgrim`> Free served around Quang Tre I see? :)
<FreeTrade> He didnt **** around like Kerry he saw a ton of heavy action.
<KoooK> arr at sea you take what you get arrr
<US_Male> I'm amazed there are Kurds alive right now
<FreeTrade> He did a lot of fighting from the rivers.
<FreeTrade> he would setup an ambush or he called them counter ambushes.
<pilgrim`> Delta province
<FreeTrade> go up river and then back into whole and camoflage the boat and then attack.
<FreeTrade> it was probably more than a swift boat, I really dont know what swift boats mean..
<pilgrim`> gotta go
<RustyFord> man thats the only thing wrong with those hot garlic wings
<FreeTrade> HIs was a heavily armed boat
<CometBaby> the place that is, in my opinion, godforsaken .. is cambodia.
<CometBaby> but vietnam is no picnic
<RustyFord> they burn going down and they burn coming out
<FreeTrade> Comet, He loved the men.
<FreeTrade> And he wasnt gay
<CometBaby> hehe
<FreeTrade> He started dating my high school girlfriend..
<FreeTrade> hehehe
<FreeTrade> He and I remained friends.
<FreeTrade> I didnt care
<CometBaby> did he marry her?
<KoooK> high school girl?
<KoooK> liked them young or what
<FreeTrade> I have no clue what happened to either of my two major girlfriends prior to marraige.
<US_Male> FT: they married each other
<FreeTrade> I have no clue where they are today and what they are doing and I have not inquired into it.
<CometBaby> hahaha
<US_Male> that's hawt
<FreeTrade> I could find our about them If I wanted to.
<FreeTrade> I have no desire
<FreeTrade> our = out
<FreeTrade> US haha
<US_Male> hahah
<FreeTrade> The second one looked exactly like the last girl in the movie Sin City.
<FreeTrade> hehe
<FreeTrade> Looks are overrated.
<FreeTrade> My wife is pretty. But its a mistake to marry or get together on the basis of looks.
<suna> jessica alba?
<IamKing> FreeTrade: true that
<US_Male> Ft, now you tell me !
<US_Male> jeez
<RustyFord> man i watched Lauren Bacall and Humphrey Bogart called The Big Sleep
<RustyFord> good movie
<suna> oh shut up us_male we both know damn well you didn't go out with me for my looks
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