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<Estuary> Abstinance sends a contradictory message to teenagers.
<RustyFord> heh Lupine hahha ok, ok, some day its you and me on the firing range and i am going to show you what "mini me" is all about =P
<suna> where is here koook? canada?
<Herzen> Sween
<Herzen> Sweden
<tweek> contradictory message...?
<CryArvach> Estuary...abstinence increases wildlife molestations
<Lupine> CA: culturally, many have the opposite idea of ***. they are into "dry ***".. in fact, many of the tribes will use items to "dry up" the woman. So, even if they were to use condoms, it'll just rip and be ineffective
<suna> quite
<suna> :P
<KoooK> Svea Rike
<occ> all this stuff boils down to the concept of "Principles" versus "Pragmatism"
<IamKing> Estuary: how does it send a contrary message?
<suna> strip clubs are legal here, and we have 850 of them in san francisco
<occ> advocating abstinence is a highly principled approach
<occ> but, obviously, is not effective at reducing teen pregnancy, STD infection rates, etc
<IamKing> Estuary: only if you're morally bankrupt with no logic skills is it "contradictory"
<redfish> occ no i think youre ***uming taking moral stands has no pragmatic value to society
<CryArvach> abstinence will not cut it in US culture...
<suna> i don't know what the strippers have to complain about, they're very protected. if a guy touches em the wrong way they get beat pretty bad, then arrested
<occ> no, im not ***uming that at all
<CryArvach> not unless Madison Ave. tones down the ads
<tweek> Madison Ave.?
<occ> im not making a judgment on the "morality" of teenage ***
<Lupine> I do not like the typical "strip club".. I'ld rather look at girls in bikinis if they are nice looking ( not slutty ) and well lit
<suna> agreed
<redfish> occ well youre separating principled and pragmatic approaches , i think what you call taking a principled stand like abstinence also is meant to have a pragmatic purpose
<occ> only douchebags go to strip clubs, lupine...remember this ;)
<Estuary> tweek - yes. abstinance contradicts the completely natural innate human impulse towards ***uality. This impulse is entirely normal, biological, and has nothing to do with morality. Abstinance is an attempt to regulate human behavior through a set or moral values based on invented notions of "purity" and "love"
<KoooK> suna: pretty much the only one who would work at a swedish stripclub would be imported baltic girls
<Lupine> occ: its suprising how much business is done at one
<Herzen> KoooK, Eh I think that devaluing life makes things like abortion easy
<suna> strip clubs are like uh.....if i want to look at some other girls who i'm not gonna have *** with naked, i could turn on my laptop and see girls a lot hotter and younger than you
<suna> :P
<tweek> 'completely natural innate human impulse' - it's not as if humanity is totally bestial.
<Herzen> and things like strip clubs, prostitution, devalue people
<Lupine> Herzen: Yep
<occ> strips clubs: "damn, i just spent $200 and now i have to go home and *********e!"
<suna> that is something i agree with
<KoooK> Herzen exactly
<suna> people think just because i don't think abortion should be illegal that i somehow magically like the idea
<Lupine> herzen: but that is "evil" preaching "religion".. bullcrap
<suna> or would do it myself if i were a girl
<redfish> estaury. its easier to be abstinent than you think . , most people dont follow abstinence because of a lot of reasons, one is nowadays people dont believe in it, but also because of peer pressure
<Lupine> suna: many people are not pro-abortion, but ar epro-choice
<tweek> why the hell not attempt to frame humanity otherwise.
<Lupine> suna: I personally obhore abortion, and I would certainly dump any woman who woudl have one ( or had one ).. but I understand that the reality of society is, there should be some access. I *do* believe we need to re-instate the RoeVWade standard of abortion thou
<Estuary> tweek - 'bestial' is another term that came from the moralization of human ***uality.
<Herzen> Not the moralization of human ***uality!
<Herzen> How awful!
<tweek> oh god no!
<Lupine> EVIL RELIGIOUS FUNDIES!
<tweek> anyway, what is it, then?
<Estuary> herzen - hey! if it -worked- it would at least have some merit. it just doesn't though.
<tweek> is humanity completely guided by instinct or by its society?
<tweek> or does it have the ability to think for its own damned self?
<Herzen> Estuary gives people too little credit
<Lupine> society survived a few millenia wihtout abortion
<Estuary> kids get wise, realize that some ***hole in a black and white outfit who's never had *** is in no position to dictate ***ual mores.
<Herzen> Aparently people don't have the ability ot make a conscious choice to not act on their urges
<tweek> you forget why we've excelled at ... survival, among other things ... in comparison to the rest of the animal kingdom.
<Estuary> Herzen - its not an issue of "credit"
<Estuary> ****ing is natural.
<Herzen> So is War
<Estuary> inevitable, in fact.
<tweek> we have the ability to reason.
<Estuary> untrue.
<Herzen> Absolutely true
<Herzen> As natural as '****ing'
<Lupine> so is clubbing your neighbor over the head if you want his cave
<Estuary> war is not inevitable.
<KoooK> we're in a state of war all the time
<Lupine> drinking cocacola isn't natural. living in a house isn't "natural"
<Herzen> Lupine, i'd disagree with that
<Lupine> we do a *hell* of alot of things that are not "natural"
<Herzen> drinking cocacola is natural =)
<Herzen> We're natural beings, our actions and creations are natural
<tweek> it's my ****ing habitat at least :)
<tweek> my diet consists of cola
<Herzen> If you follow my line of reasoning
<Herzen> Its pretty athiest/agnostic
<tweek> my environment is mainly a college
<Lupine> herzen: heh. We once had some vegan-christian.. he would lecture that eating meat isn't "natural".. whiel sipping a can of coke.. I'ld respond.. "Yea, cocacola grew on teh trees in the garden of eden... ****ed because Adam prefered Pepsi"
<Herzen> I have a strong dislike of militant vegans
<tweek> why *do* vegans need to claim that ****.
<Lupine> tweek: insecurity?
<Herzen> If you wanna be unhealthy, thats your choice
<tweek> I'm vegetarian and don't give a ****, really.
<Herzen> don't try to force it on me
<Estuary> Herzen - to the extent that humans often resolve their conflicts with violence, 'war' is indeed natural. i first thought you were saying that to my 'inevitable' comment.
<KoooK> I always found it interesting what vegans think about the meat-eating plants. never had a chance to ask anyone tho.
<Lupine> I work with several vegitarian indians.. they never preach/protest/etc...
<tweek> dunno if an insect can be fairly cl***ified as meat in that context.
<KoooK> I eat what's available.
<Lupine> also, their diets tend to be more balanced, and make up for the missing nutrition
<KoooK> doesnt matter much what
<KoooK> preferable it's tasty, but that's 2nd
<tweek> ... yeah, I really need to start eating something other than fast food...
<JanetB> speaking of non natural food.. I am going to eat some bananna cream pie
<Lupine> btw: indians tend to have great vegitarian meals..
<F15Eagle> heh
<redfish> eeh most ***uality is formed through repression anyway , im not sure people get that. so its ironic to be pro-*** and argue to get rid of repression. ***uality is formed through your life experience no matter what biology its connected to
<tweek> anyway, why the **** restrain humanity to what is natural?
<KoooK> i just baked a bit of salmon and ate it with mashed potatoes and a sauce. pretty nice
<tweek> to what they spent several million years getting out of? :)
<Lupine> baked??? heathen
<tweek> baked fish...
<KoooK> redfish give me your ***ual feeling
<redfish> dont bake me
<tweek> isn't it usually fried?
<Lupine> but I suppose if you are going to cook canned salmon.. doesn't matter how you cook it
<Lupine> tweek: salmon is best on the grill!
<tweek> or, yeah, smoked.
<F15Eagle> mmmmm
<Estuary> redfish - repression is an aberration of ***uality. imposed by a socially-constructed moral set. Humans were ****ing for millenia long before judeo-christian morals sought to exert its control over human ***uality.
<F15Eagle> Fresh canned Salmon
<KoooK> baked is the best for taste
<KoooK> that or grilled
<tweek> Estuary: perhaps they had a reason to control...?
<RustyFord> i still can't believe that people sell that **** for 45$
<RustyFord> that just amazes me
<redfish> estuary before 'judeo-chritian morals' people still had moral codes about ***
<TheTailor> Estuary, what control is that?
<tweek> I mean, ****. I'm not exactly celibate because society supposedly wants me to be...
<KoooK> core temperature of 48C
<RustyFord> hey i got some fresh used cat **** for sale
<Herzen> lol
<Estuary> tweek - indeed. it helped to establish a hierarchy and authority system.
<RustyFord> STRAIGHT from NY!
<tweek> (by the way, that's news to me. ... ****.)
<KoooK> a touch of pink :)
<RustyFord> yes
<RustyFord> with a touch of pink it\n it
<RustyFord> my cat ATE salmon!
<RustyFord> er something
<Estuary> redfish - indeed. i mention judeo-christian because its been (relatively) en vogue for the past 1000 years or more.
<Herzen> What the hell is so wrong with 'repression' of ***uality?
<Herzen> What hte hell is so wrong with self-control?
<Estuary> and, presumably, is a part of many of the westerners in this channel
<tweek> Herzen: I don't think he's talking about self-control.
<redfish> its not that difficult why. people have ***ual urges, and people have needs to stop them . self-discipline over ***uality is just as natural as ***uality
<tweek> self-control implying ... err ... self.
<RustyFord> self control is like only good when its relevant to the situation
<Estuary> JanetB - yep! that's what i said! hahahah 8 year olds! why stop there?
<Estuary> **** off.
<JanetB> hugs
<tweek> JanetB: 8-year-olds??
<JanetB> Estuary.. well it is natural right
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