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<coldstove> tortus/ some people seem to take US as an enemy, others still remain as friendly
<Nemes> I don't know, i cant help being sceptical i guess
<tortus> coldstove: tough situation when a nation is unnaturally split up like that. and one side has such hardship
<squidink> thats one hell of a speech.
<coldstove> tortus/ some change is going on here. but I don't know where the change is heading exactly.
<Lotec> squid, ain't it?
<squidink> damn fine if you ask me.
<tortus> something new in south korea?
<Lotec> squid, very good for a Democrat
<coldstove> tortus/I can't describe it with certainty. but something is going on.
<squidink> Lotec: the thing i notice most about the modern politician, is how lacking they are compared to the past, but in regards to zell miller, im mighty impressed.
<squidink> Lotec: he made an excellent point in regards to the democrats of today as well, where the hell are the trumans?
<coldstove> tortus/ even in US, so many people are getting interested in China and its language..needless to say korea
<Lotec> squid, my dad would say the Dems left them behind
<tortus> china is interesting, though, very dymanic
<Lotec> in their race to the left
<coldstove> tortus/ korea had long been under the strong influence of China
<tortus> sure, but china is becoming more transparent
<squidink> Lotec: personally, i think thats a shame, being as i am, not inclined to the left, nor the right, leaves me somewhere in the cold.
<CometBaby> squidink .. what was so remarkable about zell miller is that he said it very clearly that the Dem. party has changed. That it no longer represents what Democrats used to be. So he moved over to the right. He brought a helluva lot of the moderate dems with him.
<tortus> little by little. it could affect the entire region
<squidink> CometBaby: my problem is, i dont like the heavy christian aspect of the modern right.
<coldstove> it could be a new revival of history..or restoration of ancient regime...I'm not sure
<tortus> i;m not sure anyone is sure
<CometBaby> the Dem party has moved so far to the left, that they are pushing the moderates out of the party
<tortus> but, china is deep into international politics, and the chnia economy is now interwoven with other nations. that is a good thing
<tortus> it creates a sense of balance
<tortus> they may be excaping their isolationism
<squidink> im anti gun control, pro national security, anti welfare, etc, but i am most definately pro choice, pro science (stem cells anyone?), and most most most definately Anti-Creationism
<coldstove> tortus/ do you know what it means?
<squidink> there is not other issue that gets me anywhere near as mad, as creationism or science.
<Lotec> squid, why do you care if some people believe in creationism?
<coldstove> tortus/ It means old, traditional chinese expansionism revives...
<tortus> no i don't. the thing that i do understand is that the chines culture is not easy for a westerner to understand. at least i have gone that far
<squidink> not education, not welfare, not the economy, none of that. for me the big factor is "are you going to want to teach our children bull****?"
<squidink> Lotec: because its not real.
<tortus> but, the chinese are pragmatic, always have been. it is possible that the chinese reaction to the world as it stands will mean just fold in
<Lotec> squid, don't people have a right to decide to believe it anyway? As long as science is taught too?
<coldstove> tortus/ when we say culture, it's very ambiguous to figure out the meaning of the word. Culture has too many levels of concepts
<tortus> the thig that is scary about asia is there are ancient prejudices and animosities. similar to what you see in the middle east
<tortus> hard to get over
<squidink> Lotec: they have no right to teach it as science, in my opinon. if they want to belive that bull****, fine, thats a right, but to teach it? thats a sin.
<Hangfire> Lotec teach it in a religous cl***
<tortus> coldstove: personally, i don't see china as a threat. but i know i am ignorant of most of the finer pooints
<Hangfire> NOT a science cl***
<squidink> Lotec: if they start teaching creationism as science, we best toss out the last 1000 years of scientific knowledge, hell, lets tell kids that rats spontaneouly form from rags, and flies from old meat.
<coldstove> tortus/ China could be a threat against US in the future.
<Hangfire> it is not a valid scientific theory (I'm using the accurate terminology for a Theory here not the common misapplication of it which should actually be hypothesis)
<Emil^> tortus - i agree with ya
<tortus> i sympathize with other nations fear of the chinese influence in the region
<Hangfire> coldstove when has china been expansionistic beyond what they consider to be their historical borders?
<coldstove> tortus/ power rules the world. Not words.
<Lotec> Hangfire, I believe in evolution but don't see that it contradicts the idea that God had a hand. If I taught a cl***, I'd want to be able to say that on the first day of cl***
<Hangfire> god's involvement is debatable
<Hangfire> and that's fine
<squidink> personally, i feel relgion is fine for morality, and its important to learn about religions, but, to teach any religion as fact, to teach creationism as fact, is an offense againt reality.
<Hangfire> but intelligent design is not a valid working scientific theory
<Hangfire> there is no peer review or evidence for it period
<Hangfire> and that's the big big big big thing in science
<coldstove> Hangfire/ I don't want to argue with you on that subject. because it is so clear to me.
<Hangfire> "peer review"
<Hangfire> well I've asked you a simple question coldstove
<Hangfire> you seem to be such a "china expert" you should be able to answer it
<Hangfire> ah but you see if you do you'll have to actually include facts
<Hangfire> rather than paranoia and fear
<Hangfire> "when has china been expansionistic beyond what they consider to be their historical borders?"
<tortus> the historical borders of chian are infinately debatable. especially for korea
<squidink> see, im willing to accept that god may have created the world, thats fine, but it didnt just pop into existance, filled with happy animals and adam and eve, because thats not how reality works, unless god went to the trouble of making it look like he didnt create it, and that just doesnt make sense.
<Lotec> Hang, when they took Mongolia?
<Hangfire> tortus not really the Yalu was the one
<coldstove> Hangfire/ I told you before. Tibet was never a part of China. But china incorporated tibet forcefully.
<Hangfire> coldstove when the ming actually took it correction
<coldstove> Hangfire/ is that example enough for you?
<Hangfire> ming dynasty
<Hangfire> so want to play some more old boy?
<tortus> the asian animosities are ancient. this is not an easily solved problem
<Hangfire> and that's about a thousand years ago
<tortus> there have been m***ecres and injustices
<squidink> see thats all fine, god can have created the universe, ill give him that one, but i wont accept, without any basis in reality, that he created the planet in seven days, and tossed some whole grown man onto it, then ripped out the rib of the poor bastard, and created a woman.
<Hangfire> squidink reductionism is the word you're looking for
<Hangfire> that's what they've been trying to do with ID
<squidink> exactly.
<tortus> the tibet issue is not solved today. 100 years latere
<coldstove> Hangfire/ I'm not talking about thousand year ago history.
<Hangfire> coldstove but I am
<Hangfire> I'm talking about all of it
<Hangfire> shall we play little boy?
<Hangfire> how about the hangul emperors and all their aborted little attempts at empire building?
<coldstove> Hangfire/ Let me ask you something. are u chinese?
<tortus> hangfire: you have asian heredity as well, if i remember?
<squidink> i have no problem with the idea of god having done the big bang, we dont know how that happened, if we did, well damn, that would be the most monumental thing to know, but we dont, so god can have done that, thats fine.
<Hangfire> I do remember that very nice little time when all those turtle ships came streaming out in an attempt to create their own little dynasties
<Hangfire> they didn't get too far did they?
<Hangfire> so do you want to carry on throwing stones while you live in a gl*** house?
<tortus> western civ is more tightly parcelled out. you don't see western nations with billions of people
<Hangfire> fix your own ****ing backyard first before you go on about *****ing on everyone elses
<coldstove> Hangfire/ articulate and specify your question, please.
<squidink> tortus: china is a big country.
<tortus> squid: that makes the issues so much different from what we have in the west
<squidink> tortus: agreed.
<Hangfire> my question is coldstove are you ever going to admit your bias?
<Hangfire> you're so rabidly pro korean and anti everyone else it's kinda sad
<squidink> we worry about jobs for what, 350 million people? they worry about jobs for 1.3 Billion.
<coldstove> Hangfire/ I will. If I have any.
<tortus> i don't agree that koreans are shinese
<Hangfire> I've never said they were
<squidink> koreans arnt chinese. they are korean.
<Hangfire> they're a mongrel race actually
<tortus> but its part of your argument
<squidink> korea was never part of the empire of Qin, as far as i know.
<tortus> !
<tortus> wtf was that?
<squidink> whats a mongrel race?
<coldstove> Hangfire/it's not true. I'm not anti everyone. and I was not pro korean. to the contrary I have been ill speaking of my own country sometimes.
<squidink> i never understood that term.
<tortus> that was prejudice pure and simple
<Nemes> that was a fairly interesting interview with condi and straw
<Nemes> i enjoyed that
<Hangfire> definite links to the indian peoples and also repeated invasions by the japanese and chinese over time to either A) attempt to take over or B) gunboat style diplomacy (you're getting too cocky so sit down and shut the **** up while we burn your cities) has led to the "korean" genetic filip being watered down quite a lot
<Nemes> did u see it Hangfire?
<squidink> humans genetically speaking have 23 chromosonal pairs that determine traits, and all share the same dna structure, organ layout, etc, theres no such as a mongrel race, we're all humans.
<Hangfire> also there are some considerations of links to people in the scandanavian regions although that is debatable with a semi fantastical attempt at creating an east west language family
<Hangfire> Nemes no I was reading
<Nemes> no worries
<tortus> mongrel is derogatory. i refers to..not pure
<squidink> the idea of genetic purity is idiotic.
<Hangfire> tortus exactly there is no such thing as a "pure korean"
<Hangfire> pure nothing else either tbh
<Hangfire> but I'm just using those words as an emotional intensifier
<coldstove> Hangfire/ did I say pure korean?
<Hangfire> an attempt to shock so to speak
<tortus> no. you are using that word from ignorance
<Hangfire> thank you for telling me what I am doing
<Hangfire> I'm so glad that someone else knowns my mind so much better than myself
<tortus> np
<tortus> words are pretty good indicators of thought, actually
<coldstove> Hangfire/ sometimes others have better view on us than ourselves.
<Hangfire> Nemes he's off again first he tells us what the health system is like in the UK (neve having been here of course and only having read about it in the national enquirer or something equally trashy) and now he tells me what I'm actually thinking!
<Hangfire> well how about this?
<squidink> ideal genetic purity would be to having the ideal 23 pairs of chromosones, in perfect shape, perfectly formed. i mean pick an ideal, then think about it, thats your subjective ideal.
<coldstove> Hangfire/ your question didn't pin point so called <my bias>, actually I don't know what was your question.
<tortus> as i said, the animosities in asia are ancient and deep seated
<Hangfire> coldstove how about this? everytie you're on you're always proclaiming about the dangers of chinese expansionism and how evil china is or how mean and nasty japan is
<Hangfire> all you've ever done is ***** moan and complain about every other ****ing nation in SE Asia
<squidink> this conversation was bull**** the minute you guys started talking about race, as if one was better then the other.
<tortus> it is a volatile as the middle east
<squidink> whats wrong with japan?
<coldstove> Hangfire/you're exaggerating.
<Hangfire> squidink apart from some minor territorial disputes with China and a worry trend towards a specific type of nationalism not much
<squidink> coldstove: you feel china is expansionist?
<Hangfire> infact they've been handling the NK situation very very well
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