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<gopp> Linus-- not everyone has that will
<Katey> There's way more people competing for those ****ty jobs than there are ****ty jobs
<KoBushi> Sure, but there are only so many jobs out there.
<Katey> I'd like to see our social welfare programs be more goal oriented
<KoBushi> Some people will always fall below that line... no matter how good education becomes
<gopp> Katey it won't work
<Katey> now they just seem to be programs that maintain poverty
<Linus--> so, a loyal, hard-working employee living in poverty is ok as long as your gates at the end of your driveway don't squeak?
<gopp> Katey loopholes
<bmc> people think just because the top 1% pays whatever percent of the taxes that the rich are paying to much tax
<bmc> take it into perspective
<bmc> $120 out of a $380 paycheck
<bmc> or $2500 out of a $500k paycheck
<Linus--> the top 1% holds 40% of wealth
<bmc> which guy is gonna be struggling?
<bmc> it needs an equalizer
<KoBushi> If there are 1m jobs, and 1.2m workers... guess what? the lower 20+% of jobs is going to be for ****ty wages.
<Linus--> so let them supply 40% of federal income
<tortus> you could prolly afford a child at 35K
<Katey> KoBushi, I'm just saying that our country has way more people living at that level than our economy needs in order to fill ****ty jobs
<bmc> it needs to hit the wealthy as hard as it hits the middle/lower cl***es
<Katey> there's a lot of wasted potential
<bmc> raw amounts do not tell the story
<gopp> are you crazy
<gopp> 40%
<gopp> federal
<gopp> federal goverment has NO right
<KoBushi> Katey but there aren't enough non-****ty jobs to move them up to either.
<gopp> have NO RIght
<gopp> 40% that crazy
<gopp> KoBushi sure thier is
<gopp> KoBushi many
<bmc> er, $2500 out of a $5000 paycheck rater
<gopp> KoBushi just need the skill
<bmc> rather*
<gopp> and eudcation
<Linus--> but ceo's have the right to horde?
<gopp> Linus-- ceo's don't horde
<Linus--> to make inside deals?
<bmc> 50% of that guys paycheck is not hurting that guy
<gopp> they work for a living
<Katey> KoBushi, well, ideally better educated people would start businesses and that their additional economic activity would create more jobs
<bmc> maybe he needs to lower his expectations for quality of life
<Linus--> to squander away loyal employees pensions?
<gopp> Linus-- ceo have the right to work
<bmc> hit his paycheck as hard as you hit the guy making $380/wk
<gopp> Linus-- they don't squander
<Katey> bmc, will you please pick an ideology and stick with it, dammit! :)
<bmc> ive been saying this
<Linus--> they don't have a right to **** over your pension and then conveninetly file for bankruptcy
<bmc> even though they pay 50%
<Linus--> essentially moving the pension costs onto the backs of taxpayers
<Katey> bmc, you're usually complaining about the govt taking tax money
<bmc> its not hurting them
<gopp> Linus-- nor do you have a right to a pension
<KoBushi> Katey sure, theoretically... but only if there is a large amount of consumer confidence. For everyone to have a job or own a business, consumer spending woul have to be at all-time levels.
<bmc> id rather no tax
<gopp> Linus-- nor do you have a right to a pension
<bmc> but thats not going to happen
<Katey> bmc, and govt. spending money on roads, etc
<MadScribe> oi
<bmc> so i want them to make it more 'fair'
<Linus--> you damn well do so if that's what your employment agreement stated!
<Linus--> don't be lame
<KoBushi> Katey everyone would have to have 100% confidence in the system in order to spend mony enough that everyone gets a share
<Katey> now you're advocating hitting the rich for 40% of their check?
<gopp> Linus-- it a paper that all
<bmc> more than 40%
<gopp> it mean nothing
<bmc> more than 50%
<Linus--> a paper that's all
<Linus--> so, lets toss aside all binding contracts
<Katey> KoBushi, I'm not saying EVERYONE
<bmc> because its not hurting them like it hurts the guy they take 25% from
<Linus--> i got a bill
<Katey> KoBushi, I'm just saying it could be better
<Linus--> its a paper that's all
<Linus--> I'm not bound to pay it
<tortus> most big companies have pension protection from the govt. sorta like the insurance you have on savings.
<Katey> KoBushi, it's wasted potential
<KoBushi> bmc, Linus--, easy solution... Hike the income tax to around 60%; Initiate a federal sales tax of about 3%... and make all purchases 100% tax deductable.
<tortus> the issue is, big companies bail out of their pension obligations and the govt pays way less than what you were promised
<tortus> that is what the airlines are doing right now
<Linus--> funny how breaking a contract is impossible for the avg joe, but large businesses can alter/break the terms easily
<KoBushi> Katey in a way, but from a system-wide perspective, the system can only provide so much with a given amount of cash turnover.
<Katey> Frankly, I wonder why corporations aren't big supporters of national healthcare and SS
<Linus--> purchases tax deductible?
<Linus--> why?
<gopp> Linus-- you have no right to other money
<KoBushi> Linus-- to increase spending
<bmc> they should tax on ***ets not income
<Katey> Those health insurance programs and pension programs have become a big problem for businesses
<Linus--> gopp, its your money, you have a work contract stating so
<KoBushi> Linus-- in order to increase monetary turnover... so that more companies have more money to hire people wit.
<Linus--> kob, that won't help poor
<KoBushi> Linus-- yes it will
<Linus--> who don't have disposable income
<Linus--> that's preposterous
<Linus--> many pay little if any fed taxes now
<bmc> anybody making $30k shouldnt be paying ANY income tax
<bmc> they cant afford it
<Linus--> would they get a refund?
<KoBushi> Linus-- your thinking too small.. who pays thier wages?
<KoBushi> Linus-- and why are thier wages low?
<tortus> if you look at the ctual books of the companies that are bailing out of the pension obligations. you will see it is not feasible for them to payout. the aging of the workforce and increased productivity is doing it.
<Katey> You'd have to keep track of every purchase you make throughout the year in order to deduct it
<tortus> the bib=g companies could not have predicted it
<Katey> what a nightmare
<Linus--> because companies can get labor cheap overseas nowadays?
<KoBushi> thier wages are low because there is a high ratio of job applicants to jobs
<gopp> Linus-- and they have that right
<KoBushi> Linus-- McDonald's can't get cheap labor overseas
<gopp> Linus-- they own the company
<KoBushi> Linus-- walmart can't
<KoBushi> etc
<bmc> i want the wealthy to be taxed as hard as the middle and lower cl***es are taxed
<bmc> 25% out of a $300 paycheck
<Linus--> they sure as hell can, not in frontline positions of course
<bmc> so now make it proportional
<Katey> KoBushi, well, Walmart gets their cheap labor in the form of buying cheap product made overseas
<bmc> if you make $5k/wk
<TheTailor> Hmmm, Newt on Face the Nation.
<KoBushi> If everyone in this country spent 100% of thier own money every year, the economy would grow exponentially for several years.
<bmc> how much tax is that?
<MadScribe> ok, so i was talking about CX717 yesterday, concerned about the implications of people being able to stay awake for extended periods of time, but on second thought i guess the realization that we are going to face a 115hr work week really isn't that bad just means i'll also have to stay up 48hrs on the weekends
<KoBushi> Job rates would explode, and wages would go up
<Linus--> TheTailor, why is newt back?
<gopp> Linus-- what your soultion
<MadScribe> morning, that's just my morning apifany
<tortus> walmart has insurance and pensions. but....most of the employees are part time and do not qualify
<TheTailor> Linus--, to lead the country of course :-)
<tortus> and that is a pattern in many businesses
<Linus--> my solution would be to first take the burden of health insurance costs off the backs of employers, making american workers less pricy to them
<Katey> MadScribe, I'd really miss sleep
<Linus--> of course, that would mean natl insurance in some form
<bmc> health care should already be universal
<bmc> wtf are they doing with all that tax money
<Katey> Didn't the XFiles do an episode on soldiers who had been altered so they never needed sleep
<Katey> ?
<Katey> And they were all miserable?
<MadScribe> Katey: we'll have no choice but to get over it
<Katey> MadScribe, why?
<Linus--> but its preposterous to think corporations will want to keep paying american workers a wage plus benefits when they can get labor elsewhere
<MadScribe> if Yang is working 120hr work weeks, everyone else will have to
<KoBushi> Linus-- forcing people and companis to quickly put thier money back into the market instead of keeping it would greatly grow the economy, and the job market. It would also resault in inreased income via sales tax. Wich could in turn be put into education.
<tortus> bmc: everyone is getting healthcare. it is just not paid in the way things were intended
<haku> yes
<haku> why should they pay
<bmc> "free" health care for all is one social program i would agree with
<KoBushi> Linus-- no business can ever operate 100% out of the US and still make money IN the US
<tortus> people get care at the er, and govt picks it up, and the govt pays for it anyhow
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