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<IamKing> having Donald Sutherland playing the liberal-stereotypical "angry white guy" Republican conservative with power-hungry ambitions
<JanetB> I have not watched that show at all
<FreeTrade> something is rotten in demark and its not helped by mccain/feingold.
<SweetLeaf> It is like the left wing they have a liberal playing a consertive congressman Alan Alda
<JanetB> is anyone watching it
<FreeTrade> Alan alda is extreme leftwing.
<SweetLeaf> and he is going to be the great satan
<FreeTrade> Janet, I am not sure they have even started yet.
<FreeTrade> I will not watch it.
<JanetB> they started it 3 weeks ago.. I heard
<SweetLeaf> the left wing is sooooooo left
<IamKing> FreeTrade: that's okay...**** Morris (former Clinton aide) is writing a book on Condi's prospective to run for the Presidency in 2008...he's trying to push this book to get people to encourage Condi to run
<FreeTrade> I dont watch any tv drama or sitcom materials, unless its of outstanding quality. Usually I watch only News, Documentaries, Educational channels and Movies.
<IamKing> because if she doesn't, Hillary will win the election
<IamKing> I guarantee it
<SweetLeaf> The Gina Davis thing should be banned it is a giant informercial
<FreeTrade> Iamking, the sad thing is I am afraid condi wont run.
<IamKing> she can con enough gullible independents that she's "hawkish"
<FreeTrade> A McCain/Condi ticket would win by a landslide.
<FreeTrade> And for that matter I wouldnt mind if she was on the top of the ticket
<SweetLeaf> I watch Battle Star and Rome heh
<Herzen> I'd rather see Condi as VP
<Herzen> then P
<IamKing> FreeTrade: I know, but Morris says that he's trying to appeal to her sense of duty...her country will need her to run
<suna_> i don't think hillary will win
<Herzen> but i'm a ***ist
<FreeTrade> Herzen thats what I am proposing first.
<IamKing> FreeTrade: she just needs a few of her close friends to convince her that President Hillary would be a BAD Idea(TM) for America
<FreeTrade> because VPs of popular presidencies usually are reelected. A McCain/Rice ticket could be very popular.
<IamKing> and convince her that if she doesn't run, it's Hillary's campaign to lose
<Herzen> I like McCain
<Herzen> even despite is recent anti-war comments
<FreeTrade> Even though I am uncomfortable with some of McCains reasoning
<Herzen> I like Guiliani
<IamKing> McCain is popular with independents and a few Repubs, not enough to sustain a nationwide victory
<FreeTrade> McCain is staunchly pro war
<FreeTrade> his complaints have been not enough troops
<suna_> mccain can't make up his mind about the war, sometimes i think when he 'supports' it he's just ****ing conservative **** cuase he feels he has to
<FreeTrade> which means hes rash
<SweetLeaf> I can see the next pres election Under GW we have had record natural disasters and he caused all of them by pissing off the Gays
<suna_> but then the next time he talks he seems pretty serious so i dunno
<FreeTrade> he doesnt realize we have a political war to win as well as a tactical one.
<FreeTrade> You cant drop 100k troops into downtown Baghdad to route out the insurgents from the locals.
<IamKing> FreeTrade: enough of the Republican base don't trust McCain to vote for him...now they may vote for him over a candidate like Hillary
<FreeTrade> Thats like doing it in L.A.
<Herzen> Eh
<FreeTrade> Iamking, polls show he would smoke the election
<IamKing> or they might just not show up at the polls and let Hillary win in a landslide
<Herzen> I think they gotta be thorough though
<IamKing> FreeTrade: I've only seen Giuliani smoking Hillary in polls
<FreeTrade> Herzen, McCain has defended Bush 100% on the war, he has arged with the methods, but its the generals on the ground who tell the president how many men they want.
<suna_> iamking: in a mccain vs hillary election, i'd definently bet on mccain 1. republicans will vote for anybody over hillary the way democrats voted for anybody who wasn't bush (kerry) in 04. 2. Many liberals will vote for mccain over hillary
<FreeTrade> and the generals on the ground font want more US soldiers.
<FreeTrade> McCain is more of a Hawk than Bush which could also worry me.
<Herzen> Hey
<FreeTrade> McCain is definately more emotionally driven,.
<Herzen> Nothing wrong wtih being a Hawk
<Herzen> I'm more of a Hawk then Bush
<IamKing> heheheh
<Herzen> Security certainly is the MOST important issue for the state
<DarthBurg> Hillary just wants to be President so she can finally sleep in the President's Bed.
<Herzen> and Foreign policy should reflect that
<FreeTrade> You think we should go to war with syria aND iRAN ? At this moment I dont think so.
<IamKing> DarthBurg: roflmao
<suna_> oh, and 3. it's a fact that republicans are much more enthusiastic about voting
<suna_> if all republicans feel 'anybody other than hillary' it will have a much bigger turnout than democrats saying 'anybody other than bush'
<IamKing> FreeTrade: not until the Iraqi's have their new elections for their constitutional government
<FreeTrade> A hawk needs to base his decisions on considerations of all the possible outcomes and make an informed decision to risk a war.
<FreeTrade> mcCain I fear would allow his emotions to rule over his head.
<Herzen> I don't think so about McCain
<Kurt2> Vote libertarian
<Herzen> bahahahaha
<Herzen> libertarian
<Herzen> what a joke
<FreeTrade> Iamking, the point is McCain has backed Bush absolutely on this war, but he has argued with the war methdology and the answer to that is the generals on the field decide troop numbers not the congress.
<FreeTrade> And thats how it should be in any war.
<FreeTrade> What rank was McCain ?:
<FreeTrade> ?
<JanetB> Lt
<FreeTrade> He was never a General and there is no reason to think he is smarter than the generals in the war theater.
<IamKing> in the Navy
<FreeTrade> LT ?
<IamKing> Lieutenant
<FreeTrade> And how much action did he see before he ended up in a POW camp ?
<FreeTrade> He was an early casualty was he not ?
<IamKing> in the Navy...which is equivalent to Captain in pay grade in every other branch of service
<JanetB> then he got captured, and I think he got promoted... but was not in the service after his promition cause he was caught almost from the moment he went in
<IamKing> FreeTrade: yeah, he was shot down
<DarthBurg> he almost single handedly brunt down the Forestal
<FreeTrade> And didnt he kill people from 10000 feet altitude ? That doesnt make him a war expert.
<IamKing> and taken prisoner for 6 years, I think
<JanetB> he was a in a camp for 6 years
<SweetLeaf> LT Comander
<JanetB> and beaten horribly
<FreeTrade> Its precisely his honorable prisoner of war status which worries me, it might make fool of reason.
<IamKing> SweetLeaf: Lieutenant Commander? oh, next rank up then
<FreeTrade> In my Shakespearean mode.
<IamKing> equivalent to a Major in other branches
<Kurt2> he's a LOOSE CANNON no good
<FreeTrade> I just dont know who else we can run for president who will win.
<Lupine> *whew* Just got thru inspecting all my property.. companies actually did show up to put the shuttlers up.
<FreeTrade> So far it looks like Rudy and McCain, but that can change
<Herzen> I think its in America's best interests to try to spread freedom and democracy around the world, and I think that its a noble use of their military to try to achieve that goal
<SweetLeaf> He had nothing to do with what happende on the Forestal he was just there
<JanetB> he could have been released about a month after he was captured, cause of his Dads status though
<FreeTrade> I hope we dont have a huge primary contest..
<FreeTrade> The democrats looked like fools with 10 candidates last time.
<FreeTrade> The ones for sure to lose should bail early
<IamKing> I think they started with 12, actually
<IamKing> and it dwindled from there
<FreeTrade> Iamking, Case in Point
<Herzen> I'd like to see U.S. + Western Coalition (Japan, South Korea, Germans, U.K., French etc..) knock out North Korea
<Herzen> and Iran
<IamKing> heheheh
<IamKing> Herzen: I'd support that
<FreeTrade> Herzen, yeah me too, but China would get very upset.
<Herzen> since North Korea directly threatens the United States, and their regional interests
<Disbelief> Herzen - if that were really the foreign policy goal of the United States, why not start with our decidedly undemocratic alies? (pakistan, saudi arabia, ect)
<Lupine> herzen: on the flip side.. we could tell china "Hey, you take care of NK anyway you want.. we'll turn a blind eye"..
<Herzen> Disbelief, Why would you knock out the people who support you and leave the people who don't
<FreeTrade> Herzen and also more directly threatens Japan and other parts of asia and europe
<Herzen> If anything, you should start with the ones that don't support you
<SweetLeaf> No one is going to take on Iran or N Korea chicken ****s
<Herzen> and then go for the ones that do support you
<Kurt2> how hard would it be for china to obliterate japan
<FreeTrade> We dont want a war with china if we can solve the nuclear problem with the help of China.
<Herzen> Not very
<Lupine> kurt: trivial if they wanted to use nukes
<Herzen> the U.S. is BOUND to defend Japan legally
<Herzen> from WW2
<FreeTrade> If we cant solve it then I dont think China would make much of a strategic strike on thier facilities.
<Herzen> but Japan on its own is pretty weak, due to Article 9 of their constitution
<Disbelief> Herzen - What i'm saying is that our contradictory, inconsistant application of the "democratic ideal" reveals us as self-interested hypocrites, not the leader of a global democratic liberation.
<FreeTrade> I dont think they would respond other than rhetorically
<IamKing> Disbelief: we cannot change all countries at once...we simply don't have the manpower to do that
<FreeTrade> Herzen, its time to free the Japanese Warrior, I am not kidding.
<SweetLeaf> The US was supposed to help S Vietnam too if the north did what they did US did nothing too tired of the war
<Herzen> FreeTrade, Yeah I think Article 9 should be abolished too
<FreeTrade> Japan has produced good warriors.
<IamKing> Disbelief: so quit your *****ing that we're ****ing picking our god damned battles
<Disbelief> IamKing - no, its the matter of actively SUPPORTING countries where democratic ideals are trampled on, while implementing democracy by force in others. its not just a matter of "we can only do one at a time."
<Kurt2> what does article 9 say
<Null_Ptr> pound for pound japan can outfight the US. it's just we have more pounds.
<Null_Ptr> china won't have that problem.
<FreeTrade> Kurt2, Japan is not allowed to have an army other than a small defensive one.
<Null_Ptr> china is going to kick the US's *** someday in my lifetime.
<Disbelief> Japan has no ability to project force beyond its own shores.
<FreeTrade> They are not allowed to be a part of any offensive wars even if they are just wars
<FreeTrade> which is why they backes us in other ways in Iraq.
<Herzen> Japan could KICK ***
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