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<US-Male> you can look at ice cores, or tree rings, or sediment layers as "recorded hisory" -- but THEN you have to interpret that data
<Pickle> Then we can seriously talk about global warming.
<bmc> right
<pymptype> FreeTrade in terms of people or population %?
<US-Male> not an easy thing to do
<bmc> there is that word
<bmc> 'interpretation'
<FreeTrade> you know, I want to educate the young to not have the fear based on ignorance I experienced as a young man.
<bmc> funny thing about those, is everyones is different
<US-Male> bmc: the devil is in how you treat the data, and what ***umptions are made
<FreeTrade> These apocalyptic claims these people make, these so called scientists who are not worthy of the title, is bunk
<FreeTrade> And know it is Bunk
<Disbelief> <FreeTrade> Worldwide there is less hunger today than ever. <-- this is a reach of epic propotions.
<US-Male> it is inexact, and will have high uncertainty
<hans_kung> Pickle: Thats what the Catholic church said when Galieo showed the spots on Jupiter:) (we can't believe the science because it challenges our world view).
<pymptype> FreeTrade you don't think the recorded melting of the polar icecaps is a cause for concern?
<FreeTrade> I know it not just because of the failing of the past dooms day crowds, I know it because I have read much of the counter scientific research which shows how they are full of ****
<Pickle> hans_kung: That's a totally irrelevant comparison. Galileo wasn't demanding the enslavement of people to the state as a consequence of his discovery.
<FreeTrade> Strongly reccomend this page to all minds who are unconvinced, or weak minds which are set in stone.
<bmc> US-Male that. versus looking at global temps, 51 > 50 seems a little easier
<FreeTrade> http://www.akdart.com/warming.html
<bud``> pymptype what about the THICKENING and GROWING of the caps?
<hans_kung> You're making decisions on science simply because of political ramfications. I think it's completely relevant.
<KoooK> most of asia have come out of severe poverty in only a few decades
<US-Male> bmc: well recorded actual temps, we only have so far back see
<hans_kung> Galieo's science had important implications for his society.
<FreeTrade> Pymptype no I dont the polar ice caps have been melting since the last great ice age.
<bmc> right, but thats all we have to use
<US-Male> so people try to divine what the temp was before we recorded it
<hans_kung> Thats why the church had him arrested. They knew this.
<FreeTrade> besides there is reason to believe some are actually growing.
<bmc> do we base policies on knowns?
<bmc> or on ***umptions
<bmc> all of which vary depending on who you ask
<FreeTrade> ***umptions unfortunately
<Pickle> hans_kung: I'm making no political decision based on science. The politics of global warming have NOTHING to do with science.
<pymptype> yes of course some are growing but not at the frequency others are melting
<bmc> :(
<FreeTrade> Wait.
<US-Male> policies based on data with high uncertainty, should be very moderated
<FreeTrade> All Policy is based on public pressure, very little is based on common sense or real solutions.
<bud``> pymptype explain how it is possible that the centers of great m***es of ice have been growing, at a more exponential rate than the edges have been melting?
<FreeTrade> I misspoke
<US-Male> due to the uncertain nature of that data
<KoooK> pompompompommpompompom
<bmc> but thats bad isnt it?
<Pickle> The politics of global warming, like the politics of global cooling 30 years ago, has to do with the ideological desire of some people to place more and more of the economy under state command and control. That's it. No science involved.
<FreeTrade> Public policy is the child of the opposite of good sense and reason.
<IamKing> KoooK: did you ask your question yet, or did I miss it?
<FreeTrade> Public pressure often foolish
<bud``> pymptype scientific facts just bury morons like you
<US-Male> bmc, meaning don't change your polcies too drastically when you aren't sure of the calculations
<KoooK> IamKing I did! You missed it ****a!
<US-Male> policies
<sacX> they may be wrong about global warming or avian flu just like they were about y2k, but if they are right and we've done nothing.. seems a worse outcome than them being wrong and having prepared
<Pickle> Once we do away with those people, we can have a serious discussion about global warming, its causes and consequences.
<KoooK> afk shower+
<US-Male> make some reasonable changes, but don't go nuts with it
<US-Male> "just in case"
<FreeTrade> It scares me when an idiot like me knows more about global warming than its proponents its advertisers, Its pawns and its propagandists.
<FreeTrade> That worries me
<pymptype> bud`` i'm not a metereologist or a glacierologist but exponential growth doesn't indicate it will continue at that rate, ***uming that information is even correct
<hans_kung> Pickle--but some here make the claim that there is an agenda with scientists who do think humanity is responsible for climate change. If you're not in that group....my apologies.
<sacX> plus not being wasteful of resources and looking for renewable sources of energy just makes sense anyway.
<US-Male> the problem with reacting to uncertain predictions, is that you could be making it worse instead of better
<FreeTrade> Blaming Bush. About the connection between hurricanes and global warming, [Stanley] Goldenberg [meteorologist at the Hurricane Research Division of NOAA] concludes, "I speak for many hurricane climate researchers in saying such claims are nonsense."
<pymptype> many places experience exponential type temperature changes that could be caused by tons of different reasons
<US-Male> so, temper your reations & policy changes with that in mind
<US-Male> reactions
<pymptype> FreeTrade who blamed bush?
<pymptype> nobody ever said that Bush invented global warming
<pymptype> nobody
<pymptype> its been going on since long before bush
<bud``> pymptype ok, so i melt an icecube and it produces 2mg of h20, but at the same time im injecting 5mg of new water onto the same cube that becomes part of it... the cube is gaining 3mg right? or in freakoid global warming speak OMFG THE CUBE IS LOSING 2MG!
<Pickle> hans_kung: In many cases (eg David Suzuki), there IS an agenda there. I'm willing to accept that in other cases, some scientists genuinely believe that man is responsible for global warming. However, I find it difficult to believe that, in the face of contrary evidence and the total lack of anything other than a weak correleation based on very limited time-series sampling, the majority of man-made global warming believers, believe it for scientific rather tha
<FreeTrade> These are just by lines, read the articles
<Pickle> rather than idological convenience reasons.
<pymptype> bud`` i dont think you understand what exponential growth means, it doesn't have anything to do with the actual quantity
<sacX> FreeTrade: it's easy to quote anecdoctes contradicting global warming just as it's easy to quote anecdotes supporting it
<Pickle> Ideological, even.
<bud``> pymptype i think its obvious i understand a hell of a lot more than you
<FreeTrade> some of them are suspicious but any hardy study of global warming must make all people who seriously and impartially view it at the very least they MUST BE as most scientists must be... Skeptics
<hans_kung> Pickle--I disagree, I think the science backs up the claims with much evidence, and I don't see any real challenges to the underlaying ***umptions.
<pymptype> the glacier could lose 10 gallons of water a minute and gain .5, then .6, then .7 which would be higher exponential growth but still lower total gross
<Herzen> There is a fat, black, sweaty preacher on my TV
<sacX> it's not a simple science and anyone who claims to KNOW one way or the other should be viewed with great scepticism
<FreeTrade> Analysis: Recent Global Warmth Is Natural and Benefits Humans. Regarding natural climate variability, it should be noted that the nineteenth century was the end of a well-documented, centuries-long cold period in many areas of the world. Hence, the period of unusual cold at the start of the instrumental record may bias the casual observer to believe the second half of the nineteenth century displayed "normal" temperature, and
<Pickle> hans_kung: A century of correlational time-series data is the only real underlying ***umption. That's about as weak as evidence can be and still be called "scientific".
<bud``> the glaciers could lose 10 gallons to defrosting and gain 20 gallons to new growth, and you global warming freaks would still insist we're LOSING 10GALS A MONTH!@#$
<pymptype> bud`` that isn't what you said and that also isn't what is happening
<bud``> pymptype the data indicates the center of the glacial m***es are increasing m***
<bud``> the edges melt
<bud``> so what
<bud``> thats called normal
<Pickle> hans_kung: And the challenge to that data is the simple logical axiom that correlation on its own is usually insufficient evidence to prove a causal relationship.
<Pickle> hans_kung: That's why man-made global warming is a theory, not an accepted fact, to most of the scientific community.
<FreeTrade> What am I pasting ?
<FreeTrade> I am pasting dissent
<OldSchool> To be so ignorant as to think that the m***ive ammounts of CO2 humanity now pumps into the atmosphere, as compared to pre-industrial times, has no negative man-made effect on our environment is just mind boggling.
<FreeTrade> withing the scientific community and within other communities.
<FreeTrade> Why ?
<FreeTrade> To make you say "no way is global warming occuring or a problem"?
<FreeTrade> No its because if I have any affect at all on anyone its to make you skeptics not disbelievers.
<FreeTrade> make you skeptics and make you research on your own the claims to the opposite.
<Pickle> hans_kung: And the fact that Mars has recently been shown to be undergoing global climate change itself ( http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/mars_ice-age_031208.html ) further casts a shadow on that weak correlational data.
<FreeTrade> It would be unfair to prematurely say that global warming is increasing because of human activity which we will not know for another century, but it would be equally unfair to now be aware of the 1000s of studies and sceintific evidence and the other side of the story which says there is nothing abnormal going on.
<US-Male> OldSchool: you ***ume it has a "negative man-made effect"
<FreeTrade> not be aware of the the 1000s
<IamKing> OldSchool: your mind is always easily boggled :P
<OldSchool> So what, we wait until it is too late then? good plan =x
<FreeTrade> All of us ought to remain as skeptics, none of us shoudl presume to know the course of the planets internal clocks.
<Pickle> I predict that within another ten years we'll have sufficient understanding of the sun's effect on climate change, both on earth and other planets, that man-made climate change theories will be largely debunked.
<FreeTrade> And anyone who claims to know the future is full of ****
<US-Male> OldSchool: all doomsayers say that. "Listen to us before it's too late!"
<IamKing> hahahah
<OldSchool> Well, that is a very real scenario
<Herzen> If Global warming is true
<Pickle> Of course, by then the eco-socialists and their regulations will be firmly entrenched.
<US-Male> it doesn't work -- you have to do better
<IamKing> OldSchool: in your small mind, yes
<Herzen> and its true that humans are contributing to it
<Herzen> or making it happen
<Herzen> What the **** then?
<bud``> OldSchool the avg. global temp was 5degrees higher in the 1400-1500's, were they all capitalist republicans burning fossil fuels back then?
<US-Male> OldSchool: you need better evidence
<Herzen> We ain't gonna stop usin cards
<Pickle> Herzen: Socialism.
<Herzen> cutting autoemissions by 10% in 3 countries ain't gonna do ****
<Herzen> Russia isn't gonna stop
<Herzen> China ain't gonna stop
<Herzen> India ain't gonna sotp
<Herzen> USA sure as hell ain't gonna stop
<Herzen> So what the **** are all you little *****es worried about
<Herzen> If its happening because of us, we ain't gonna be able to stop it anyways
<Pickle> Herzen: Then we need to place m***ive amounts of the economy under state control, to properly direct which technologies get used, and by whom.
<Pickle> sacX: Tell me of a govermental climate change directive that doesn't involve increased economic regulation.
<OldSchool> So then you people are okay with companies say, dumping toxic checmicals into waterways and such? Why would we want to regulate business like that? =x
<Herzen> I don't equate minor regulation
<Herzen> to socialism
<Pickle> Obviously increased economic regulation is the aim of the human-caused global warming fanatics.
<bud``> OldSchool all noble causes, however hijacked by people who really dont give a ****
<FreeTrade> Let Them Confess Their Faith. It wasn't long after I became a research scientist that I learned that scientists aren't the unbiased, impartial seekers of truth I always thought they were. Scientists have their own agendas, philosophies, pre-conceived notions, and pet theories. These views end up influencing their science. Nowhere does this have a greater impact on the science than in global warming theory.
<US-Male> OldSchool: just in your neighborhood
<US-Male> here's a plan -- we'll dump all the chemical waste in OldSchool's cul-de-sac
<Pickle> Herzen: It's not "minor" in terms of the dollar amount of the economy that will wind up under state control. Even compliance with Kyoto, which most "environmentalists" consider wholly inadequate, will require wasting billions of dollars on nonsense, and a great deal of emissions regulation and/or subsidies to encourage "alternative energy".
<FreeTrade> You know on this channel I debated endlessly with a professor at a university of science. Eventually he admitted to me that its true there is no proof not even strong evidence of a catastrophic global warming. But he said what if they are right? Should we do nothing ? ..... Well, What if the world is really cooling since we cant know, should we do nothing to try to prevent a coming ice age ? Why take a chance
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