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<FreeTrade> You know on this channel I debated endlessly with a professor at a university of science. Eventually he admitted to me that its true there is no proof not even strong evidence of a catastrophic global warming. But he said what if they are right? Should we do nothing ? ..... Well, What if the world is really cooling since we cant know, should we do nothing to try to prevent a coming ice age ? Why take a chance
<OldSchool> And what was that about the temperatures in the 1400s? What, before the metric system and the accurate measurement of temperature even existed? =x
<FreeTrade> That was me btw not a paste on the last one
<US-Male> FT: and the stance "What if they are right and we did nothing?? " Is actually, a pure emotional appeal
<Pickle> Herzen: When all is said and done, if the eco-cultists get their way, economic growth will, at the very least be slowed, and at most send us into negative territory (ie contraction).
<FreeTrade> As humans being born is both dying and taking a chance.
<bud``> b'bye, goin out gonna enjoy this day
<FreeTrade> we start to die the minute we are born.
<US-Male> "What if they are right and we did nothing?" can be used as a strawman for any claim
<FreeTrade> and we take chances from the moment of birth
<Pickle> US-Male: That's how the Aztecs justified human sacrifice.
<FreeTrade> And nations also must take chances when they do not have clear compelling evidence of a real disastor.
<FreeTrade> To not do it is to kill the poor
<CryArvach> get yer popcorn folks.... The Wilma show is about to start!!!!!
<Pickle> "What if the priests are right, and the sun really WON'T rise tomorrow if we don't feed the gods a human heart?"
<US-Male> like I could state that ..., ohh let's say "Mexicans are infecting us all with AIDS" or some insane claim
<sacX> Pickle: as if the latest energy bill isn't filled with subsidies to the oil and gas industry?
<FreeTrade> because when you tax the world economy you stave the poor.
<FreeTrade> Starve
<CryArvach> Pickle...gotta love ignorance
<FreeTrade> and you reduce opportunity for 3rd world nations
<US-Male> or I could say "The moon is going to crash into the Earth and we must PREPARE!!"
<CryArvach> No matter how high the tax is...the rich will always get richer
<FreeTrade> which btw some global warming theories suggest 3rd world countries would benefit from the global change.
<US-Male> And if anyone challeneged me, I reply "What if they are right and we did nothing?"
<IamKing> FreeTrade: I prefer cooler weather
<Swigert> hey
<IamKing> let it come!
<FreeTrade> But I dont agree with that or disagree with it.
<FreeTrade> I simply know the science is flawed and not convincing to a skeptical and thoughtful thinker.
<Pickle> sacX: I think I mentioned subsidies as a bad thing.
<Swigert> global warming is a hoax
<animus> st/win 2
<FreeTrade> Iamking, honestly ? I moved to California for warmer temperature!
<FreeTrade> 22 years ago ;)
<Swigert> The UN is behind it, which makes me automatically suspicious
<Pickle> Well, I'm moving out west ASAP, purely for climatological reasons. Well, that and this region never really emerged from the Victorian era.
<FreeTrade> Swigert yeah because one of the scientists involved in writing the UN report says that kyoto doesnt represent the findings of their reports at all..
<FreeTrade> Its a political instrument it is not a scientific one.
<FreeTrade> thats a fact and can not be denied.
<FreeTrade> Kyoto is political.
<Swigert> if the US signed Kyoto, hundreds of billions would flow out of the US economy into the pockets of Third World dictators to spend on luxuries and weapons
<US-Male> "What if they are right and we did nothing?" is an intellectually vapid stance -- it means the individual has no compelling proof but he wants you to take some drastic action anyway
<FreeTrade> And it was written by professional politicians.
<FreeTrade> US, right
<Swigert> FT: if global warming were actually a real problem, Kyoto is no solution
<FreeTrade> US, to act on the basis of fear we might as well spend every dime we have on meteor defense (Which btw is rather cheap and a more plausible way in which human life could be destroyed.
<KoooK> US-Male hehe I've heard that so many times by christian people when they hear about my atheism
<US-Male> FT yep
<KoooK> couldnt hurt to pray.. just in case...
<KoooK> lolz
<FreeTrade> But besides meteors we should spend all our money on 100,000 different dooms day scenarios.
<US-Male> KoooK hehehehe
<FreeTrade> how the hell do you and I know God isnt going to come back and slaughter most of us.?
<FreeTrade> Well I dont think its true but a book says it is.
<US-Male> KoooK, nothing agasint religion but "what if you were wrong?" is not a good reason to me
<OldSchool> Is the fact that CO2 and methane in the atmosphere reflect the heat from the sun back onto the earth scientifically valid?
<FreeTrade> And that book is believed in by a billion people
<FreeTrade> 2 billion + actually
<FreeTrade> Hey I am agnostic but I could be proven wrong, and some day my blood could run red in the 7 seas with all the other infidels.
<FreeTrade> Hell I just say what I think, I dont know much of anything.
<Disbelief> OldSchool - they don't 'reflect' so much as trap the heat. and yes, its scientifically validated by many complex models.
<FreeTrade> I dont believe their is a god. I dont know though because I could be proved wrong some day
<pymptype> FreeTrade air pollution is a problem reguardless of 'dooms day scenarios'
<pymptype> so are rising oceans
<FreeTrade> Pymp, Yes and I saw it decrease by multiplicatin 10s of factors sometimes more from 1960- 2000
<Pickle> Air pollution isn't a problem for me.
<FreeTrade> it is so much cleaner now than when I was a kid.
<OldSchool> And is humanity producing more of said g***es currently than at any other time in our history?>
<pymptype> FreeTrade it may be true some particulate matter was decreased but it is still a serious problem
<FreeTrade> and it is a 1000 times cleaner in London than it was in hmm Was it the 17th century ?
<FreeTrade> Not exact on that.
<Pickle> I internalized that externality by moving somewhere with few people. Of course, that also meant sacrificing employment opportunities--thus the internalization.
<Pickle> But if you do not like air pollution, you can do likewise.
<Swigert> FT: these people are anti-captialist, anti-people, anti-this, anti-that. They fail to understand that human beings also live on this earth.
<Pickle> In my case, my problem was more with people pollution than air pollution.
<OldSchool> And we'd like to keep it that way -x
<Null_Ptr> the rain has come
<FreeTrade> Anytime we can clean the air without putting some poor minority or poor white boy out of work I am for it. And as we gain in wealth there is a direct correlation with a decrease in pollution And this is in the entire western world. or 1st world
<Null_Ptr> CryArvach is it raining there
<Swigert> but it's not about air pollution - it's about climate change
<FreeTrade> Swigert, not all global warming people are anti capitalists but a large body of them began to promote this theory
<Swigert> or allegedly about climate change - hard to tell
<FreeTrade> It can be traced politically to the source and where it is admitted by some ecologists that they must destroy capitalism at any cost, There goal is a return to agrarianism
<US-Male> Swigert, what it's *really* about is test-floating the strawman
<FreeTrade> You remember that bomber guy ?
<Swigert> us-male: ah, true
<FreeTrade> The eco bomber ?
<US-Male> it's a phony issue used for political campaigns
<TimothyW> Pickle : People Pollution ? Litter ?
<FreeTrade> Unabomber ?
<FreeTrade> He believed in that.
<Pickle> TimothyW: No, just too many people.
<CryArvach> Hurricane is at Marco Island...200 Miles or so south of here
<Swigert> FT: yeah - Ted Koczinski
<FreeTrade> he believed he has to protect the earth and return it to agrarianism
<Pickle> People ****. Therefore, the more of them there are in a given space, the more a place ****s.
<FreeTrade> Yes he was math major at UC berkeley who graduated with at least a BA
<FreeTrade> or BS
<US-Male> CryArvach, is it cat 2 now ?
<CryArvach> beats the h outta me....we will not get ****sworth up here...
<CryArvach> some rain and wind...blahblahblah
<US-Male> yeah it6 will be tropical storm if it goes up there
<US-Male> no biggie
<FreeTrade> pickle its ironic the same people who claim to want to help the downtrodden and poor and the 3rd world, that their actions are exactly contrary to that seemingly noble goal.
<JanetB> yeah temp os still 98.5!!
<JanetB> os=is
<CryArvach> now if it cuts over to Miami...prob. a flying Cuban alert
<Null_Ptr> its raining in venice now
<CryArvach> storm picks up the inner tubes...
<FreeTrade> A white supremacist couldnt say it better.
<Null_Ptr> and didn't
<US-Male> CryArvach, bad day for balseros
<Pickle> FreeTrade: Right; those people are liars. Like the union president I met a few weeks ago, who crowed about how labour was helping the third world by pushing up wage demands and combatting child labour. I told him that he knew damned well that the only people being helped were first-world workers, while those third-worlders were getting screwed out of jobs.
<FreeTrade> yeah lets spend our money on environmental climate manipulation so we can kill niggers and savages from Africa and South America and latin by the decreased world economy. (Note this is not what I believe its what I compare some of the so called solutions to being equal to in their effect.
<FreeTrade> Pickle right on.
<FreeTrade> Very true
<FreeTrade> those unionists the democrats protect so hard and who have bought and sold them those unions prevent the transfer of wealth to 3rd world countries which natural capitalism would do.
<FreeTrade> In some ways climate fanatics actions would accomplish the goals of sick white supremacists is the point I poorly made.
<Pugsley> Anne Rice has apparently found the lord
<TimothyW-> Pickle : I'm not bothered with People Pollution.
<Pugsley> all her goth fans will be upset
<CryArvach> interesting...
<CryArvach> doesn't she write horror novels??
<Pugsley> she wrote occult horror
<Pugsley> vampires and the like
<Pugsley> Interview with a Vampire was hers
<CryArvach> Pugs...nahhh.....she can make religious occult horror now...
<Pickle> FreeTrade: Most definitely. Third world nations simply could not afford to adopt the technologies that the environmentalists want us to force-develop.
<pymptype> guy on Fox News is saying this might resemble the "perfect storm" of 92
<CryArvach> [erfect?
<JanetB> ohhh are you all going one about Ann RIce and her new novel
<TimothyW-> People Pollution is balanced out with Earthquakes and Natural Disasters. But I'm not worried about it. Cause the Israelis and New Yorkers and India examples should be followed.
<FreeTrade> Tony Blair, formerly a strong proponent of Kyoto said that it is impossible to make it work. It can not work because he admitted you had to harm your economy to follow it.
<FreeTrade> He believes in it
<FreeTrade> He just believes it cant be implemented
<JanetB> isn't canada implememting it?
<FreeTrade> JanetB, I dont think so
<surlly> All canada makes is bar b qs
<FreeTrade> Everyone claims to be implementing it to some extent even the USA..
<JanetB> why I do not get with Kyoto, is it exempted the countries that emit to worst polution
<surlly> And radar detectors
<FreeTrade> Btu the fact is noone really is or will for any long term period
<Disbelief> Interesting article on antarctic glacial calving: http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn8173
<FreeTrade> Bush said we will do what we can to work toward the goals of kyoto but that we woldnt do it on the time table of the kyoto document
<FreeTrade> Calving ?
<Disbelief> yes.
<surlly> Glaciers have calvs
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