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<surlly> Glaciers have calvs
<Disbelief> its when m***ive chunks of glaciars break off and fall into the ocean
<Disbelief> and become iceburgs which melt, rising sea level
<CryArvach> good shot FT
<JanetB> hey I heard friday that the glaciars are thicking
<FreeTrade> Thats happened as long as I have been alive nearly half a century
<surlly> I saw a mini m***ive chunk of glacier fall off during our alaska cruise last year
<Disbelief> JanetB - where from ?
<JohnXXIV> carbon taxes are coming
<JanetB> Disbelief.. in p***ing, on a news stroy
<JanetB> you may be able to google it
<JohnXXIV> energy cos want to trade the credits
<CryArvach> two Christopers a Jude and a Michael
<JanetB> thats a good thing CryArvach hehe
<FreeTrade> (2) New evidence shows that the polar ice caps are growing, not melting; and almost all the warming at the poles is occurring during the polar winters, when no melting can occur.
<TimothyW> JohnXXIV : Companies will be made to shave Carbon Pollution. Not Taxes implemented.
<JanetB> thanks FreeTrade
<CryArvach> I bought a cigar box..but considering how it was designed inside..I now have all my rings and bracelets and necklaces in it...
<CryArvach> I have a lot
<Disbelief> JanetB - that's a little flimsy to google something on..you're going to have to get beyond generics for it to be useful.
<JohnXXIV> they should cut corporate taxes so companies can invest in new energy
<FreeTrade> http://www.ncpa.org/pub/st/st157/
<Pickle> John: Not going to happen; the NDP made sure of that.
<Disbelief> Freetrade - what do you make of NASA's analysis ? http://svs.gsfc.nasa.gov/stories/arctic/
<FreeTrade> Read it and weep... Or at least learn to be a skeptic and not a believer of the faithful
<JohnXXIV> the liberals will probably campaign on the tax cuts
<FreeTrade> What do you make of noas ?
<Pickle> West Europeans love the global warming fad. Having exhausted all of their primary resources long ago, forcing those of us who haven't to regulate their price up to the point of "alternative technologies" gives them a perceived competitive advantage in industrial production.
<FreeTrade> Or northen oceaninc atmosphere organization ? I dont know the right acronym I can find it first they are the most respected scientists on hurricanes who say there is no evidence it has anything to do with global warming
<Pickle> In other words, it makes their less-productive region more productive relative to the rest of us.
<FreeTrade> I know that Nasa takes surface temperatures of the ocean which they have only done for a short few decades
<FreeTrade> if that
<Disbelief> FreeTrade - ncpa's you mean? a conservative policy advocation institute isn't even on the same level as NASA.
<FreeTrade> And during part of that period temperatures were actually cooler
<FreeTrade> Disbelief and everything you read is a Leftwing groups analysis
<Disbelief> Nasa is a leftwing group ?
<FreeTrade> the point I am trying to say here is that people should be informed of all the points of view
<FreeTrade> The4y should know that 50% of climatologists disagree with the global warming culture
<FreeTrade> They need to be skeptical and be true to science.
<Disbelief> FreeTrade - that point would be valid if i gave you a politically skewed one.
<Disbelief> i did not.
<OldSchool> "culture" eh
<FreeTrade> Science never comes to conclusions unless they can prove them
<Disbelief> haha
<FreeTrade> Acting on theories well there are a million theories out there.
<FreeTrade> I do not intend to act on them
<Disbelief> not really.
<FreeTrade> I intend to wait and see
<Disbelief> not all hypothesis are even theories.
<OldSchool> I act on the theory of gravity every day =x
<FreeTrade> I intend to let economics govern our future as it has always governed our existance.
<Disbelief> FreeTrade - how do you feel about evolution ?
<US-Male> that NASA website doesn't make any predictions.
<FreeTrade> Disbelief, regardless of my answer it wouldnt lend any more or less credibility to anything you or I have said here today its irrelevant
<FreeTrade> Why do you ask ?
<US-Male> or ***ign any cause
<FreeTrade> I am a believer in evolution.
<OldSchool> "Projected 2060"
<FreeTrade> But I also realize there is a lot of evidence against macro evolution
<Disbelief> well evoution can't be "proven" but its definitely a conclusion of science.
<FreeTrade> So I am even skeptical in that belief.
<Disbelief> which evidence would that be ?
<JohnXXIV> I am starting to lose faith in nihilism
<OldSchool> the bible
<OldSchool> lol
<FreeTrade> some of it has been proven because its been duplicated over and over (Micro evolution)
<Pickle> In early May, newspapers across the country reported that a team of "adventurers" from Minnesota was setting off to "document climate change" at the North Pole. According to newspaper reports, their aim was to "draw [attention to] the gradual warming of Earth's climate" and "convince skeptics, especially in the Bush administration, that global warming is real."
<Pickle> The expedition lasted less than a month, as the adventurers discovered global warming may not be as real or as pervasive as they thought. Reported the June 4 Minneapolis Star-Tribune, "Amid a stretch of extraordinarily heavy snowfall, strong winds and broken and shifting ice, the two men from Grand Marais, Minn. abandoned their expedition Thursday [June 2] after advancing only 45 miles in 24 days."
<Disbelief> its really foolish to artificially divide evolution into "micro-" and "macro-"
<Airbuster> how many people have blamed Alpha on Global Warming?
<FreeTrade> The definition of a theory proven is when you obtain the same result everytime you do the experiment with the exact same variables.
<JohnXXIV> they were going to walk from minnesota to the north pole?
<FreeTrade> Its foolish to divide it into macro and micro ?
<FreeTrade> Why do scientists do so then ?
<FreeTrade> See you are so arrogant in your belief.
<FreeTrade> you claim to know everything.
<FreeTrade> I have not
<Disbelief> no, i don't.
<Disbelief> where did i claim to know everything ?
<FreeTrade> I have only claimed that I am a skeptic and that skepticism is wise.
<FreeTrade> You think you know it all and have all the answers
<FreeTrade> thats the problem with you phony scientists...
<Disbelief> understandable, but you didn't say what evidence there was to refute 'macro-evolution'
<FreeTrade> It violates the very principle of scientific method
<US-Male> btw, when a publication says "there is evidence to suggest ..." , that is not an actual claim
<Disbelief> 'phony scientist' ?
<FreeTrade> Disbelief, I have read evidence, I dont disagree with it or agree with it, I dont know enough about macro evolution to say anything.
<Disbelief> FreeTrade - fair enough.
<FreeTrade> I do know this, people who have lived in the mountains in the north and the south dark skinned and light skinned, both have larger lungs to deal with the lower amount of oxygen at their altitudes.
<FreeTrade> I know that kinky african hair is to dissipate heat or it does that anyway
<FreeTrade> I know their are black africans who dont have kinky hair.
<FreeTrade> They lived in cooler areas
<Disbelief> you're taking off on quite a tangeant
<Disbelief> whats your point, exactly ?
<sacX> macroevolution is just microevolution over a long timespam
<FreeTrade> My point is I have reason to think evolution is real, I just cant say with absolute metaphysical certitude that it is.
<US-Male> Disbelief: you brought up evolution, for some weird reason
<Disbelief> sacx - those examples are hardly good examples for evolution.
<Disbelief> er, FT, i mean
<Disbelief> sacx- i agree w/ your statement
<FreeTrade> I havent lived a million years which is probably the minimum time you need for a good experience in judging evolution
<FreeTrade> it appears..
<FreeTrade> I repeat, it appears that people seem to adapt to environments over a period of about 200k years or so.
<sacX> well how about variation in dogs that has developed in just several thousand years through selective breeding
<Disbelief> FreeTrade - yeah, because all the intermediate homomnid fossils of man-like primates over the period of hundreds of thousands of years isn't enough ?
<sacX> obviously it has been helped along, but there are huge morphological differences
<JanetB> all species adapt to their enviroment
<FreeTrade> Logic suggests but does not prove, (And science) that we were not a monkey or ape, and that we came from the ocean based on our spine.
<US-Male> Disbelief: are you trying to float a strawman ? Get to your point.
<Disbelief> FreeTrade - you do realize that Homo Sapiens Sapiens has probably only lived within Europe for 50 to 100 thousand years, right ?
<FreeTrade> There was a major shift in the family of primates 100s of 1000s of years ago
<FreeTrade> monkeys were the result of one shift
<FreeTrade> we of the other
<PhatDan> Is Papa John's new pan pizza any good?
<FreeTrade> This is all just theory though, i wouldnt pretend to say its fact.
<FreeTrade> Its evidenced.
<FreeTrade> There is cause to explore this scientific view.
<Disbelief> obviously not all evidence is equal.
<Disbelief> There really is no credible evidence to suggest that modern humans originated from a near aquatic ancestor.
<FreeTrade> Well Like I said the test of science between theory and fact is that when you reproduce the exact same result from an experiment with no changes in the variable then you have proven it.
<FreeTrade> At least until someone shows how your experiment was flawed
<FreeTrade> or how one variable wasnt accounted for.
<FreeTrade> But we have a higher degree od certitude when we can recreate by experiment the same result over and over.
<Pickle> It is not beyond the realm of possibility that technology will advance to the point where we can reproduce evolution in a controlled environment. 'Till then, it's a theory, however credible and logical it may be.
<FreeTrade> we know a virus evolves several times before it dies, or goes dormant or whatever, we lack a lot of information about virus.
<Hangfire> it can't die
<FreeTrade> Usually does that is.
<Hangfire> those things aren't alive in the first place
<FreeTrade> It can run out of hosts.
<Disbelief> individual organisms don't 'evolve'
<Hangfire> yes they do
<Disbelief> no, they don't.
<Hangfire> but it's generally not visible
<US-Male> genetic changes can be shown with fast-breeding fruit flies
<FreeTrade> Its absolute a mutation or evolvement
<Hangfire> drosophila to be exact
<YYZ> scientists would claim that creating life in a labratory is proof that god doesn't exist aha
<Hangfire> =D
<FreeTrade> Evolutioon is mutation
<Airbuster> evolvement?
<Hangfire> FreeTrade it's a bit more extensive than that
<Disbelief> hahah
<FreeTrade> Evolution.
<Airbuster> interesting
<Disbelief> FreeTrade - you need to read Dawkins' "Selfish Gene"
<FreeTrade> Hangfire, please dont treat me like I am a complete idiot, I do have some background in this albeit old.
<Disbelief> your idea that individual organisms "evolve" is just wrong.
<Pickle> It would be accurate to say that mutation is the motive force behind evolution.
<Hangfire> Disbelief dawkins has been debunked already
<sacX> mutation is the raw material of evolution but they are not equal
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