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<sacX> mutation is the raw material of evolution but they are not equal
<sacX> natural selection plays a big part
<Airbuster> I don't think a single organism can elvolve. It happens from one generation to the next
<Hangfire> FreeTrade well let me explain the current crop of mutations that are expressing now are actually about 10-20K years old
<FreeTrade> it does mutate or evolve to survive, the same way we humans and animals allegedly do
<arcade> Hangfire: Oh?
<Hangfire> it takes a LOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG time
<Disbelief> pickle - yes, but mutation itself is not evolution. otherwise creationists would have to deny that mutation happens.
<Airbuster> 'adapt' would be a more apt word when dealing with a single organism
<Pickle> Disbelief: Correct.
<Hangfire> they entered the gene pool about 20K years ago
<FreeTrade> A lot of creationists do not disbelieve completely in evolution..
<Hangfire> and we're just getting around to dealing with them now
<US-Male> if I were a Christian I could simply say that evolution was God's tool
<US-Male> no biggie
<FreeTrade> they believe many of them evolution was caused by god. it is scientists more than religious people who question evolution theory or aspects of evolution.
<Disbelief> airbuster - thats using it rather loosly too. an organism doesn't mutate to adapt, but more fit organisms are adapted to their environment by natural selection.
<FreeTrade> Some religious people believe in a literal 7 days so be it
<FreeTrade> Most do not.
<Disbelief> that's most of creationists. believing that god "did evolution" is not creationism.
<FreeTrade> Thats what divine evolution ? Or whats it called is ?
<IamKing> FreeTrade: there are many creationists that believe the earth (and whole universe) is only 6,000 to 10,000 years old at most
<arcade> Disbelief: The less fit organisms die, the more fit live, basically.
<FreeTrade> I have studied evolution over the years and I find the most disagreement between scientists not others.
<FreeTrade> but then I dont read religious journals.
<Disbelief> arcade - yes. they don't "evolve" as FreeTrade claimed.
<FreeTrade> Im not an idiot please
<IamKing> arcade: that's natural selection, not macroevolution nor biogenesis, which most athetistic evolutionists believe in
<arcade> Disbelief: I think he meant that the _species_ evolved, not individual organisms.
<US-Male> Disbelief: A Christian could argue that the "creation" simply took a long time (evolution)
<FreeTrade> I have studied some material which suggests some major evolutionary events take about 200,000 years to occur
<Disbelief> of course there is great debate about the complexities of evolution, but among scientists, it is widely accepted.
<FreeTrade> such as huge lungs in mountain dwellers with low oxygen
<Pickle> "Evolution" refers to the changing frequency of various genetic alleles in a given population group. Mutation is its motive force.
<Hangfire> FreeTrade about that yes
<US-Male> and that "7 days" was a metaphorical usage of the word "days"
<US-Male> err, not literal
<Hangfire> Pickle I would say mutation is the process by which we know it as, the motive force would be the sun and the background radiation etc
<Hangfire> that's just me splitting hairs though
<CryArvach> alas...Mutation does not describe a Liberal..unless it is the ultimate negative survival characteristic
<Hangfire> good enough a statement to leave well as it is
<FreeTrade> US, thats what most christians believe there are some literalists of the christian and jewish faiths but most are not literalists.
<arcade> FreeTrade: We've got black people and we've got white people, and we've got people "in between". White people thypically are better adapted to cold (they don't get frost-burns as easily). Black people don't get sunburned as easily.
<Pickle> Hangfire: Ultimately true
<arcade> FreeTrade: I think that has taken far less than 200.000 years.
<TimothyW> Uzbekistan Leader Islam Kamirov needs to go.
<CryArvach> arcade///yes
<CryArvach> arcade...Eskimos are better adapted to cold than we are though
<FreeTrade> arcade, true and it is false what doctors and scientist have been telling dark skinned people which is that you need sun block as much as the white redhead person.
<FreeTrade> thats a lie of science.
<arcade> CryArvach: Indeed, and that has taken even less time.
<CryArvach> some of the darker caucasians have as much sun pro as blacks
<FreeTrade> If you have darker skin you have natural protection against skin cancer.
<CryArvach> Eritreans for example
<FreeTrade> ifyou are white with red hair you are in the highest risk group
<FreeTrade> and you should not go outside without protection
<CryArvach> but you are best adpted to an area with little sun...
<hirogen> speaking of evolution there wasn't much when u consider george bush senior and dumbo junior bush
<US-Male> it's also true that the rapid change will get you...
<CryArvach> body makes Vitamin D from sunlight
<FreeTrade> Its funny when science tries to be politically correct to not offend racial sensitivities.
<US-Male> if you slowly get a little sun, your skin will build some protection
<CryArvach> hirogen...nothing stupid about either Bush
<FreeTrade> so called racial because other than discussing it this way I dont believe in race either.
<US-Male> if you are all white and suddenly sun yourself nonstop, it's more dangerous
<arcade> CryArvach: *cough* except the religious part *cough*
<FreeTrade> But I use the term race commonly
<CryArvach> even Clinton the treasonous bastard is smart
<hirogen> clintons's a damn genious compared to bush now
<CryArvach> arcade..I do not ack. religion in a genotype/phenotype discussion :)
<FreeTrade> US, yeah but doctors were claiming not to long ago that blacks were just as much at risk for it, and the medical evidence says otherwise.
<arcade> FreeTrade: Personally I've just become so pissed off about political correctness that I just use the words I want. :)
<Disbelief> FreeTrade - when and where did "doctors and scientists" tell "dark skinned people that the need sun block" ?
<FreeTrade> and yes there is a black and a white health differnce.
<IamKing> Hangfire: unfortunately, we have yet to see obvervations let alone experiments to show random radiation from natural sources to cause BENEFICIAL mutations in any organism...it's almost always detrimental if not out right lethal
<CryArvach> hirogen...if you mean by sliming out of Treason and valid impeachment charges..perhaps so
<hirogen> us asians where sunblock a lot,
<arcade> CryArvach: I was talking about stupidity. ;)
<FreeTrade> It may not be eqqual opportunity but blacks are susceptible to more deadly diseases and a shorter lifespan than whites.
<FreeTrade> My wife is black, her doctor is black she knows it.
<Disbelief> FreeTrade - not for genetic reasons.
<US-Male> FT yeah I never really bought that blacks are at rish as much as whites for skin cancer
<Disbelief> FreeTrade - that statement is totally ignorant of causation.
<US-Male> I mean it can happen
<CryArvach> I was responding to hirogens claim of how Clinton was so smart
<FreeTrade> Disbelief, actually its partically genetic reasons
<sacX> European explorers had a hell of time when they first visited the African continent
<FreeTrade> and its partially cultural
<arcade> CryArvach: He's religious too, isn't he? ;)
<CryArvach> blacks still have probs with sicke cell anemia...
<FreeTrade> Its genetic that skin is dark and protects from the sun
<US-Male> but it happens more to whites
<US-Male> CryArvach true
<CryArvach> but in Africa.. malaria can not bond to those cells
<Disbelief> 'blacks' as a subset of humans are no more genetically susceptible "to more deadly diseases" and "shorter lifespan" than other socially-defined races.
<sacX> sickle-cel being protective of malaria
<hirogen> i thought blacks had more of a certian chemical
<sacX> right
<sacX> :)
<Disbelief> that statemetn is jsut absolutely ignorant.
<FreeTrade> US, right, Race and even narrowerly, Ethnicity is actually important in medical care.
<CryArvach> the sickle cell mutation became prevalent due to malaria
<US-Male> it's true, current research indicates that
<Disbelief> FreeTrade - you're basically saying blacks have inferior genetics which doesn't allow them to live as long and makes them more likely to die of disease.
<CryArvach> Blacks possess more melanin..thus darker skin
<FreeTrade> mediteranean whites have different health concerns than American whites
<US-Male> but they are general rough trends only
<FreeTrade> Disbelief, My wife is black, my kids are mixed.
<Null_Ptr> Disbelief that doesnt have to be true -- it could be that medicine just does a better job of helping whites because they're more studied
<US-Male> since we are pretty well mixed to some degree
<FreeTrade> You want my opinion ?
<Disbelief> FreeTrade - no, its not. Race is not a biological fact. its a socially-created convention.
<arcade> CryArvach: Talking about that.. did you know that about 10-15% of europeans are immune to HIV? :)
<FreeTrade> My wife and my own genetics are not superior to the other
<Null_Ptr> we're all mutts anyway, those of you who are so sure you're not are just wrong
<FreeTrade> My kids genetics I believe are superior
<FreeTrade> I cant prove it
<onebox> lol FreeTrade
<Pugsley> FT: hehehehe
<onebox> backwoods science
<FreeTrade> But there is scientic reason to believe it.
<Katey> I think it's more likely that a disproportionate number of Blacks in the US live in low income and don't get as good nutrition or medical care as more affluent people
<Disbelief> FreeTrade - which is what ?
<Katey> I suspect that accounts for a lot of the stats regarding the health of Blacks in the US
<Disbelief> katey - that's TOO rational!
<FreeTrade> What dog survives better than any other ? The ferral dog which is from every breed of dog mixed.. The street dog.
<FreeTrade> I am not implying my children are dogs, in fact I worship my children
<Disbelief> "survives better than any other"
<Disbelief> haha
<Pugsley> FT: they are from the deep end of the gene pool
<FreeTrade> But diversity in genetics may be a good thing
<Disbelief> i'd like to see some statistics comparing the lifespan of a ferral dog compared to that of the controlled breeds
<FreeTrade> notice at the beggining of this conversation I said belief.. I believe, which means I dont know. Its a theory
<FreeTrade> I cant prove it.
<sacX> many pure bred dogs have common genetic problems
<Disbelief> well i don't know why you start off your beliefs on ***umptions
<FreeTrade> I base it on studies of other animals because I believe the Human is an animal every bit as much as a dog is.
<Hangfire> FreeTrade BZZZT no it's a hypothesis. A theory is a proven fact
<Disbelief> sacx - yes, from inbreeding.
<FreeTrade> sacX< restrictive gene pool.
<FreeTrade> A theory is not a proven fact.
<hirogen> i aint being racist here or nothin im form the uk, and when first indians/pakistanis came to this country, they had fuc all, we had to work in textiles factories, on low wages and ****, or setup r own businesses like corner shops, now their children with the opportunities available through education etc, r now well educateds doctors, lawers, business men etc, so why do black always **** up, not all of them but i neversee them do much wor
<sacX> yeah exactly mongrels are more resilient
<Hangfire> yes it is
<FreeTrade> It is a hypothesis, major or minor.
<Hangfire> no it isn't
<FreeTrade> A theory is not a fact
<US-Male> if you allow more "already-survived" genes to mix, then in the long term, it should be better
<FreeTrade> You really believe that ?
<Hangfire> oh yes it is
<FreeTrade> US-Male, you are a scientist.
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