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<FreeTrade> They have adapted it
<Lupine> FT: You can say that "Newtonian Physics" are a subset of general relativlity, you can reduce the equations for certain conditions. i.e. non relativistic effects, macroscopic scale, etc
<Hangfire> FreeTrade yes it was
<US-Male> FT: well, whatever the truth was -- was there all along, it's just that we had an incomplete understanding of it at all times
<onebox> ugly truth is ugly. until people address it frankly, it is going to get worse.
<Katey> I 'm sure that people understand that the word "theory" in science is much more solid of a term than it is in vernacular
<US-Male> and hopefuly our understanding becomes more complete over time
<Katey> right?
<Lupine> US: Yep. People still stuck to the earth before Newton came along ;-)
<FreeTrade> So what do I use for theory when I mean a belief that is supported by some evidence that people hold as fact but which may not be fact ?
<FreeTrade> What term do I use ?
<US-Male> Lupine right
<FreeTrade> Hypothesis ?
<US-Male> they just didn't understand it back then
<Hangfire> FreeTrade a hypothesis is "I think it might be like this but I'm gonna have to prove it"
<FreeTrade> Hypothesis used to mean the grand theory, i.e, The universe is expanding
<rond> you just say " They Said" they covers quite a bit of things
<Airbuster> theory
<Lupine> Well, often times.. a "theory" proven wrong ( or incomplete ) can still be referred to as a "theory".
<FreeTrade> And yet we can prove that by experiment.
<Hangfire> a theory is "me and everyone else have tried our damndest to make my hypothesis fall over and we can't"
<US-Male> FT: if it's got some good experimntal evidence, and not proven wrong -- I'd call it a theory
<onebox> the US is responsible 100% for the problem. they brought them here for whatever stupid, misguided reason.
<FreeTrade> I understand that all science is divided into two cl***es, theoretical and experimental.
<FreeTrade> Your telling me that the big bang is fact because Mathematically Hawkings proved his theory ?
<US-Male> Lupine, true an old theory proven false can be talked about -- we still need to call it something
<Hangfire> well it's not the big bang anymore
<Hangfire> US-Male an insufficient model
<FreeTrade> The big bag is not fact, its supposition, its a interesting sceintific explanation of how we got here, True or not.
<Lupine> FT: one often speaks historically of "theories" that were once accepted, but are now known to be incorrect. For example, the "theory of the steady state universe", or the like. Especially if it was historic> i.e. heliocentric theory
<Katey> FreeTrade, science doesn't make that leap
<Airbuster> theory and hypothesis are synonyms
<Hangfire> US-Male or "out of date"
<FreeTrade> OR does fact no longer mean = Truth
<US-Male> Hangfire, yeah
<FreeTrade> Fact can also mean fiction ?
<Airbuster> FT, no
<Lupine> FT: yes/no. "The Big Bang Theory" has been ruled out as being incomplete. It has been subplanted/modified etc
<FreeTrade> Since its a fiction that atoms are the smallest particles in the universe ?
<Airbuster> what a rediculous debate
<Lupine> Actually, in some fields.. "fact" can be not true.
<US-Male> like early beliefs that the sun revolved around the earth -- shown to be just wrong, but they did have the idea of things revolving
<Katey> A theory being "incomplete" doesn't make it erroneous
<Lupine> "fact" would then be a statement of the state-of-affairs. A proposition.
<Airbuster> Lup, then it's not fact
<Katey> It makes it incomplete
<FreeTrade> Fact before derrida meant a truth.
<Airbuster> the is one of the dubest discussions I've ever seen
<FreeTrade> Facts could be found to be false
<onebox> wow, ive seen many lame arguments in IRC but this is getting really bad
<FreeTrade> but a fact was accepted as truth
<Airbuster> FT, in which case it isn't fact
<Lupine> Air: not really. it goes to the heart of theory of knowledge type philosophy
<US-Male> a lot of times things are called "wrong" when you can state it as being incomplete -- doesn't matter much as long as everyone is clear about what they are saying
<FreeTrade> Airbuster but it was a theory and theory is fact
<Airbuster> way too esoteric
<Katey> I don't think science takes the leap to declare this or that theory to be "fact"
<FreeTrade> According to the debate here.
<bmc> fact is what is, it doesnt matter if we call it a fact, if its not how it is, its not a fact
<bmc> 'the earth is flat' was incorrect, never was a fact
<onebox> FreeTrade lost the debate and like a sore loser tried to spin it into a semantic argument
<Hangfire> bmc well to be completely true there is no such thing as a "fact"
<FreeTrade> I studied scientific method very seriously but I did not study science.. But I did study method.
<onebox> basic IRC crap
<Hangfire> we can never be completely 100% certain of anything
<US-Male> FT: let's say it's a "working fact".... we need to ***ume it as fact to move forward
<Katey> Hangfire, yes
<Katey> :)
<bmc> there are facts
<FreeTrade> I am not saying I am not wrong, I am saying it defies logic and reason
<bmc> facts are what is
<US-Male> later on it may turn out not to be quite factual
<FreeTrade> and I have given a half dozen reasons why
<FreeTrade> An atom was the smallest unit in the universe, theory
<praxis9> Hangfire: Except for not being 100% certain of anything. We're... certain of that.
<US-Male> the real "whole truth" is always partly unkown
<FreeTrade> theory = fact
<Hangfire> praxis9 lol
<FreeTrade> now we knot it is not the smallest unit
<FreeTrade> know it is not
<FreeTrade> So was the fact wrong ? Or was it never a fact and only a theory ?
<US-Male> smallest one they knew of
<Airbuster> just consult a dictionary and be done with it, I say
<Katey> theory != fact
<onebox> homo***uals, jews, athiests, coloreds, satanists & witchcraft practicioners, etc.
<bmc> if something is incorrect, it couldnt of ever been a fact
<praxis9> onebox: You forgot midgets.
<US-Male> it was simply the smallest one they knew of -- later when smaller ones were found, of course those were smallest known
<Lupine> Air: well, an english dictionary isn't always the best reference for science
<FreeTrade> Why do people say with hesitation, Theoreticaly we came from apes but..... There is a lot of evidence to suggest we broke lines 100s of 1000s of years ago ?
<FreeTrade> Why do people say such things ?
<onebox> part of what makes our country so great is our diversity
<bmc> accepting inaccurate knowledge as fact doesnt make it fact
<Hangfire> FreeTrade because they sound like pompous bastards if they say "I hypothesize"
<bmc> it being the way it is, makes it fact
<FreeTrade> Diversity of concepts and word meanings too
<Katey> FreeTrade, because people abuse the word "theory" in the vernacular use
<Airbuster> Lup, you need to make sure you can be understood by others
<bmc> the sun rises in the east
<Lupine> air: absolutely. and in the context of scientific discussion, it is not the OED
<bmc> thats certainly not up for debate
<FreeTrade> Why is it pompous to hypothesize, isnt that why we begin experimentaton
<FreeTrade> ?
<onebox> diversity of emotional maturity too
<Lupine> air: ALOT of kids get ****ed over by the use of "imaginary" etc
<Lupine> airbuster: that is why most higher science works in mathematics, and rigidly controlled terminology. Not common english
<Airbuster> Lup, explain
<FreeTrade> I hypothesize that children of mixed race have a genetical advantage over purer races. Ok, Now I have to seek to prove it.
<sacX> a lot of people get ****ed over by the use of 'alot'
<sacX> ;)
<Katey> FreeTrade, right
<FreeTrade> I need to develop theories to support my hypothesis
<Hangfire> FreeTrade ding ding ding!
<Hangfire> you've got it!"
<Hangfire> no
<Hangfire> you need to experiment to prove your hypothesis wrong
<FreeTrade> was I develop my theories as fas as I can, then I must try to destroy my theories
<onebox> i think you're right FreeTrade, but im not a scientist
<Hangfire> and if you can't do that then your hypothesis is true and is infact a theory!
<Lupine> Airbuster: try having a discussion on subatomic theory, and using the OED dictionary definitions for "strange' 'top' 'bottom' 'charmed' etc
<bmc> i dont agree with that
<Lupine> Air: if you relied on the OED defition of those, you'll be ****ed
<onebox> ive taken college Biology and that's it
<bmc> i dont think mutt animals have superior traits
<Airbuster> well, as I said earlier. This is too esoteric for my taste, so I will extricate myself
<Disbelief> lupine - no kidding.
<FreeTrade> And my peer review would seek to destroy my hypothesis by disproving my theories.
<bmc> surely human animals would follow suit
<US-Male> Gilda19 is sending .rar files
<bmc> mixed breed animals often possess genetic defects
<US-Male> probaly viruses
<Hangfire> FreeTrade when your hypothesis becomes true it becomes a theory
<FreeTrade> If my theories can not be disproved and in fact can be demonstrated repeadetly they become fact.
<Lupine> Dis: seriously thou.. many kids get ****ed due to their reactions/thoughts based on the english meaning, i.e. imaginary numbers.. "is it all just made up then??"
<FreeTrade> At lease for now.
<Hangfire> yeah pretty much
<Hangfire> that's it
<FreeTrade> Until a scientist proves me wrong.
<onebox> that's how it works FreeTrade
<FreeTrade> Proves a theory wrong which is crucial to support my hypothesis
<Hangfire> the life of a research scientist is pretty much bashing their own ideas until they fall apart
<FreeTrade> Onebox, then what Am I missing
<Disbelief> Lupine - the "colorfulness" and arbitrary nature of English can cause those problems.
<FreeTrade> thats how I understand it to work
<Lupine> FT: Yep. Of course, the better designed the tests [ meaning, the more likely they are to prove said hypothesis correct/incorrect ] the stronger it will be
<Disbelief> Lupine - especially with people who tend to take things literally.
<onebox> nothing FreeTrade. just that you need not waste your time explaining it.
<Lupine> Dis: Heh. yea.
<onebox> it gets annoying
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