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<RustyFord> or would you rather have one that was wide awake operating on you?
<Carious> yes Timur
<bmc> if you get laid-off you wont have any problem
<RustyFord> heh its an ***inine arguement
<Timur> bmc: from the expert
<Timur> RF: why, it's not true?
<bmc> they denied me last time i tried
<Timur> you just said it happens
<bmc> cause i didnt do the interview
<RustyFord> What?
<Carious> caffeine will likely not impair a physician like EToH would
<RustyFord> dude do you have a problem with reading comprehension or what?
<Timur> RF: what about the argument is invalid
<Timur> it depends on the amount of caffeine and the person using it
<RustyFord> what the **** are you talking about?
<trompe> RustyFord: no... you don't understand at all. He asked me if I wanted a doctor on cocaine operating, and I asked if he would want a doctor on (legal) uppers and downers operating on him.
<Timur> <RustyFord> heh its an ***inine arguement
<Timur> that
<RustyFord> heh, Timur man lately you have been having a freakin mental problem or something
<RustyFord> heh
<Katey> physicians are allowed to drink when they're not on call or on duty, right?
<Carious> yes
<Timur> no, I'm as usual. See, I don't use drugs or abuse alcohol, so I tend to make sense.
<Carious> many do when they are on call
<RustyFord> anyway, point is Doctors are human, you can not expect them to be Gods
<Katey> Carious, well, I would have a problem with that
<bmc> not using drugs or alcohol doesnt imply you make anymore sense than anyone else :P
<Carious> me too
<Katey> That should be grounds for getting canned, imo
<Timur> you can expect them to exercise the necessary discipline to perform their job without taking unnecessary risks
<Timur> that's basic.
<Espectro> i mean if you don't like physicians drinking, go find these uberpeople who have no private rights
<RustyFord> trompe so basically its a tit for tat which again relates back to my original point that its an ***ININE arguement
<Katey> RustyFord, you can expect them to excercise good judgement
<Timur> what argument is asinine?
<rond> there is no one to can a doc in most cases
<Espectro> and are ace surgeons
<rond> and dr review boards will not
<Timur> that doctors should exercise self-restraint while plying their trade?
<Katey> rond, they can lose their priveleges
<bmc> lots of doctors smoke cigarettes also
<rond> and dr review boards will not
<bmc> the horror!
<Carious> rond-but they put themselves at personal and professional risk
<rond> i know from expercience
<Katey> Or if they work for a hospital, they can get the boot
<Timur> cigarettes don't impair motor or cognitive function
<rond> i was ex dri at a ppo
<bmc> lack of it to an addict can
<rond> dir
<Espectro> i was a helicopter surgeon and pizza delivery guy
<trompe> RustyFord: what argument is asinine? my argument is that employees should not be drug tested at work; they should be fired only if their drug use affects their job performance... except where it would cause safety issues, e.g. they were a surgeon or a bus driver or whatever
<Espectro> that's kina like a surgeon
<Carious> trompe-or computer programmer?
<Timur> trompe: oh, I disagree. Randoms have a purpose
<bmc> your surgeon could have a 'nic fit' while cutting into your chest
<Timur> bmc: then he would have to wait or use a patch or soemthng
<Espectro> the pizza delivery guy and the bartender are perhaps the most important
<trompe> Timur: what is the purpose of drug-testing a garbage collector or a postman or something?
<Timur> but that's more a question of timing than of impaired motor or cognitive function
<bmc> well im saying it would impair him
<bmc> he would get the shakes maybe
<Timur> trompe: heavy machine operator
<bmc> start sweating
<Carious> you want your garbage truck running over people?
<Timur> nah
<bmc> get a headache maybe
<Timur> well if that's a risk, there's the patch
<RustyFord> trompe the one that keeps going back and fourth, He asked me if I wanted a doctor on cocaine operating, and I asked if he would want a doctor on (legal) uppers and downers operating on him. <---- its an ***inine argument period, its a tit for tat arguement that leads to no real resolution to the debate nor adds any value, i think yer both ****ed in the head basically
<trompe> Timur: yeah... the driver is a different guy to the collector... I said that heavy machine operators should be tested
<Timur> RF: I agree, they shouldn't use any meds/drugs that impair motor or cognitive function
<trompe> RustyFord: thanks for putting your spelling errors in capitals to highlight your ignorance
<Espectro> heck i'd rather have the doctor **** up than the pizza guy or bartender
<Carious> Rusty-gain some height man :)
<Katey> There are certain jobs where drug testing seems very reasonable
<Timur> trompe: there could be a case where someone riding could switch with the driver
<Katey> But for most I think it's unecessary
<Timur> I bet it happens often in fact
<Timur> I don't, I think it's perfectly legitimate.
<RustyFord> its real simple, people shouldn't be ****ed up on the job, nothing more, nothing less.. in certain cases there should be on the job testing, like airline pilots, semi truck drivers, etc etc, anything that is public transportation
<trompe> Timur: ok... well if that is the case, then maybe they should be tested... let's say... a janitor at an office building that mops all day
<Timur> sure
<Katey> why?
<Timur> no problem here
<Timur> why not?
<strider_> pizza delivery guys are bastards!
<Katey> it's pointles
<Katey> s
<Katey> that's why
<Timur> no,it's pointful
<Katey> nope
<Carious> neener
<trompe> Timur: ... or someone stocking shelves at a supermarket, or a call centre operator... I say, if your job ****s that bad, feel free to get high
<Timur> if he's high he might be more inclined to, say, steal.
<Katey> then fire him
<Timur> no, feel free to not get high
<Timur> feel free to get fired/face criminal charges
<Carious> well-this has gone south
<trompe> ... with the understanding that if you are incompetent at your job or cause harm to someone, you'll get punished for it
<Timur> certain drugs are illegal for a reason, and abuse of legal ones is illegal for a reason
<Katey> well, that's an entirely different discussion, Timur
<Katey> :)
<Timur> there's a significant cost to having to wait for that to happen, and have to risk constant repetition of same
<Timur> and with random testing, that risk is minimized.
<Carious> trompe-my only point was-that I would prefer someone sober to do surgery on me-granted her would face charges if not and something happened to me, but then it would be too late for me!
<Katey> If someone does there job and does it well and their position isn't one where the safety of other people could be at risk, then it's not necessary to pry into people's personal lives
<Timur> I have no sympathy for those who seek loopholes to feed their heads instead of learning to handle life
<Katey> Timur, I'd love to see some data on that. :)
<trompe> Carious: well, I think that where safety is involved, there should be drug-testing... but not in general
<Carious> Katey-that is a slippery area
<Timur> http://www.nber.org/digest/mar00/w7383.html
<Carious> now we have to define "safety"
<Katey> Timur, you're suggesting that someone who uses an intoxicant while on their own time is some sort of degenerate who's hiding from their lives/problems
<Katey> that's quite a broad brush
<Espectro> heck even doctors- most have seen in their lives ppl who were good at what they do who were'dirty' vs ppl who were 'clean'
<trompe> Timur: lots of people take stimulants to help them handle life... and they succeed by any objective measure... but a random drug test would get them fired
<Espectro> just like any other job
<Timur> http://www.whitehousedrugpolicy.gov/prevent/workplace/research.html
<Timur> trompe: well, then they can stick with legal stimulants like caffeine
<Timur> there's the loophole
<Espectro> i'd take dexter manley over mike dukakis to fill a defensive line position
<Timur> Katey: it's what I'm stating, exactly so
<Espectro> or lawrence taylor
<Katey> Timur, so you don't think someone can use an intoxicant casually or occasionally and just do it because it's enjoyable?
<Katey> I'm ***uming that you don't drink then
<Timur> it's what I've observed among friends and ***ociates and cl***mates
<Lupine> Jeb Bush's EOC report
<Katey> Timur, well, it's not what I've observed
<trompe> Espectro: I'd put Mike Dukakis against your Bush any time
<Timur> Katey: they can, but that 'right' (***uming one gives it that status) doesn't trump the 'right' of society to condemn it for very valid and practical reasons
<Lupine> katey: I drink too expensive liquors to use it to get drunk/buzzed/etc :P
<Espectro> oh man jc watts would punk him
<Katey> Timur, then let the cops catch them
<Katey> Lupine, are you a hazzard in the workplace?
<Timur> Katey: and they do, but 1. until they're caught, there's lost productivity and potential, and 2. if it just is an endless cycle, that's just more waste
<Lupine> Katey: i'm part owner.. so even if I were ;-)
<Katey> Timur, if there's productivity loss then just fire them
<Katey> If someone does a crappy job, for whatever reason, fire them
<Timur> and then hire another workr who's just as likely to use and lose more productivity
<Timur> ad nauseam, ad infinitum
<Katey> The reason why they can't do their job isn't relevent
<trompe> Timur/Katey: I wonder how line managers feel about imposing random drug testing policies on their direct employees... how does that affect productivity?
<Espectro> doctors are a bit differnt than the general worker anyway
<Timur> probably raises it by having people feel confident few if any coworkers are abusing drugs
<Katey> Timur, According to the page you pasted, you can look at person's work history and get a clue as to what sort of employee they'll be
<Espectro> in a sense they are like athletes
<Katey> Management isn't just a hapless doofus at the mercy of drugged out employees
<Espectro> damm i hate ****ing up to doctors like this
<Katey> hire competent people with good work history
<trompe> Timur: you're ***uming people would have problems with their colleagues' recreational drug use that didn't affect their work and that they didn't know about
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