| |
| |
| |
|
Page: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74
<OcDoc> ty for the coffee
<lgcbmb> welcome
<cyr> OcDoc: maybe he bribes politicians but then the public should just vote for politicians that cant be bribed
<FreeTrade> Senator Frist said he did not believe in a blanket amnesty BUT he admitted his states economy depended on legal and illegal aliens.
<OcDoc> cyr: yes, but the public doesn't
<FreeTrade> Anyone who objectively studies the economics of this can come to no other conclusion, keyword: Objectively.
<KoBushi> ScrwySqrl shouldn't the US have went under some 50 years prior to that w/o an estate tax?
<cyr> OcDoc: where do you get this from, where is an example of him buying somesort of law?
<OcDoc> cyr: never mind, you probably don't get th epoint
<StayFresh> looks like Libby/Rove are expected to be indicted
<cyr> OcDoc: yes I do, and the fact is.. people dont vote for politicians who take bribes
<KoBushi> ScrwySqrl why is it hat the US was cable to survive for over 100 years w/o an estate tax?
<FreeTrade> Gates political opinions dont impress me one bit.
<StayFresh> that's the word in washington
<OcDoc> you probably believe in the myth that the government runs the country
<KoBushi> able*
<FreeTrade> But I admire some of his personal charity.
<cyr> OcDoc: it does
<OcDoc> cyr; see?
<ScrwySqrl> Ko: There was a smaller estate Tax enacted in the 19th century. The 1916 Estate Tax was in response to the m***ed fortunes of the Rockefeller, Carnegie, Morgan, etc who had enough wealth to push governments around.
<StayFresh> Bush will probably kick out Libby and Rove from the White House as of today, and already started shopping for 2 replacements.
<OcDoc> it's impossible to use logic to combat strongly held incorrect beliefs
<yawg> heh
<FreeTrade> They actually had money to buy Senators you mean.
<FreeTrade> They didnt run the government, but they had excessive influence because of thier bribes.
<KoBushi> ScrwySqrl no there wasn't, there were 2 estate taxes that were very short lived prior to that of 1916
<cyr> OcDoc: its not strongly held
<KoBushi> ScrwySqrl practically speaking there was no estate tax prior to 1916
<OcDoc> cyr: it's okay ... you can admit it ... you're in a large majority
<FreeTrade> Rockefellar in particular, I dont know if the others or which ones who bribed, I know Rockefellar did because I studied his autobiography.
<ScrwySqrl> Presidents Even, FT. McKinley was basically bought & Paid for by them as well. Teddy Roosevelt was the first to dare to stand up to them
<KoBushi> ScrwySqrl so how did the US make it almost 130 years w/o an estate tax? Shouldn't it have failed LONG before that?
<StayFresh> Rockfeller is notorious thug
<FreeTrade> On the other hand, Rockafellar helped put America on the Map economically
<KoBushi> ScrwySqrl clearly you have no answer
<FreeTrade> And Carnegie build 100s of librarys across the nation.
<KoBushi> that's why it took you 5 minutes to google the estate tax of 1916 ;)
<cyr> OcDoc: The only thing I have noticed is politicians trying to win over some votes on threatning microsoft "We need to break this monopoly up"
<FreeTrade> built
<ScrwySqrl> KoBushi: No. It takes a m***ive influx of Wealth to start corrupting the system
<OcDoc> cyr: you obviously believe it makes a difference who wins an election
<lgcbmb> heh
<FreeTrade> It was a bad time for free market economics, these robber barrons didnt always play by Capitalist economic rules, however with history for hindsite they sure advanced america.
<cyr> OcDoc: ofcourse it does
<ScrwySqrl> In the US it was Industrialization, For Florence, it was the Banking money of the Medici, for Rome it was the loot of Warfare.
<OcDoc> cyr: see? strongly held belief in a myth
<FreeTrade> I think it was just a stage in the industrial revolution from fuedalism to true capitalism with its competition and free markets (Relatively, Never ***ume when I say something I mean absolutely unless I say so)
<OcDoc> the Democratic Wing of the Statist Party and the Republican Wing of the Statist Party
<KoBushi> ScrwySqrl so, your previous claim was bull****, and now you attempt to augment it :)
<OcDoc> Free: there's no such thing as true capitalism
<FreeTrade> The height of modern Capitalism began with Reagan.
<ScrwySqrl> FreeTrade: the 'free market' is as much myth as the 'new communist man' -- Unfettered free markets create monopolies that destroy the markets.
<OcDoc> Free: not in the real world anyway, and it's not clearly defined anyway
<FreeTrade> OcDoc, I am talking about the sum total of the greatest and most respected writers and proponents of capitalism.
<cyr> ScrwySqrl: how do you "destroy" markets?
<OcDoc> Free: I didn't say capitalism doesn't exist
<FreeTrade> All of them believe in open market competition and believe in limits by law for the public good..
<StayFresh> Democrats/republicans are both on the same team, they both run the nation dictatorially
<FreeTrade> its a matter of degree
<OcDoc> as a matter of fact, capitalism is unavoidable
<ScrwySqrl> Reagan? Regan started the loot & Pillage brand of 'capitalism' -- Capitalism has been around for a rather long time
<FreeTrade> When I say all of the major ones, I mean the Austrian school, Cl***ical economists, and the Chicago school.
<StayFresh> America is created by design and run by design and it's outcome is by design as well
<OcDoc> there is no economic system that doesn't use capitalism ... although they may try to disguise it
<ScrwySqrl> cyr: yes: A monopoly doesn't have a 'market' there;s no competition
<cyr> OcDoc: N-Korea?
<FreeTrade> True capitalism sounds like an "absolute" I never meant to imply that.
<OcDoc> I think of the US government as a check and balance on business ... but it is not currently being used in that role
<KoBushi> ScrwySqrl no on purchases from a monopoly?
<FreeTrade> But there are principles of capitalism universally understood, such as free competititon and free markets, which again are relative.
<ScrwySqrl> StayFresh: is theer a point to that circular argument?
<OcDoc> cyr: well, it's unavoidable if you like to eat
<KoBushi> ScrwySqrl monopolies have markets... themselfs and the customers
<cyr> ScrwySqrl: so you mean because M$ has overwhelming market share of OS, they can just do as they please, bring MS DOS back, because theres no competition? THERES ALWAYS COMPETITION
<OcDoc> cyr: you can avoid capitalism by eating your seed corn, I guess
<ScrwySqrl> Ko: no, just the opposite: EVERYONE purchases from a monopoly, because they are the only game in town. But its not capitalist anymore
<FreeTrade> if you had the money to muscle someone out of competition by violating laws and denying them thier rights to freely express their Capitalist yearnings, that isnt the capitalism that authors who supported it meant.
<OcDoc> cyr: but I would be willing to bet that NK has a huge underground free market
<hans_kung> why are we having this debate even? MS lost in court, they were a monopoly. Many states agreed with that. :)
<cyr> ScrwySqrl: you think that if Walmart started selling only Walmart Ham and Walmart Bread, and nothing else in the store, that they would still have no competition? THERE ALWAYS IS COMPETITION
<FreeTrade> IN fact after WW1 the big threat was the democrats favored a state capitalism which included a partnership of megacorporations with government.
<OcDoc> Free: if you can get the government to back your biz "in the name of, and for the good of the people"
<ScrwySqrl> Cyr: Wal-Mart isn't a monopoly
<FreeTrade> Thankfully that never came to fruition in the modern 20th century.
<hans_kung> How many people are here using Netscape as a browser? HmmMMm?
<FreeTrade> FDR believed in it.
<cyr> ScrwySqrl: in many areas it is
<Nemes> hans_kung, firefox yes netscape nah
<ScrwySqrl> But your power company (without the regulatory gov't board) could set prices of $10.00 a kilowatt and you'd be screwed.
<FreeTrade> OcDoc, yes but you can also use the government in ways which denied competition and picks favorites.
<pilgrim`> the period post WW1 was one of evolution societaly
<hans_kung> MS does have some dogs nipping at their feet now with Linux, and Google and Apple being ported over to the Intel chip.
<OcDoc> Free: true
<cyr> ScrwySqrl: That would just drive people to other methods of energy
<OcDoc> Free: I can't remember what I was disagreeing with you about
<hans_kung> Longhorn is going to not be that much of a big deal.
<pilgrim`> we had a cl*** structure that was breaking down
<KoBushi> ScrwySqrl no, that isn't true
<pilgrim`> economics was predicated ont he older structure, it therefore needed change
<KoBushi> ScrwySqrl just because a monopoly doesn't have competition, doesn't mean everyone purchases the goods they provide
<FreeTrade> WW1 saw a very efficient force of State Capitalism. They wanted to extend it into peace time, the problem is it doesnt work in peacetime, in war time patriotism has a strong motivation factor, in peacetime its money not patriotism
<OcDoc> pilgrim: world war one was BECAUSE of the changing economy, probably directly due to the formation of the Federal Reserve Bank
<pilgrim`> Longhorn will finally have what OS X currently has. only it will come with a far more photogenic BSOD
<KoBushi> ScrwySqrl besides, monopolies don't relate to the estate tax issue, because we have anti-trust laws.
<ScrwySqrl> cyr: How many peopel in the Northeast are buying new energy production abilities because their gas bills have doubled?
<hans_kung> yah. cool graphics pilgrim...but no major revamp of the file system, which everyone was hoping for.
<FreeTrade> Natural monopolies are ok.
<KoBushi> ScrwySqrl for example... Microsoft was a monopoly ... not everyone purchased MS products. and MS still had a "market"
<FreeTrade> but forced monopolies are not.
<pilgrim`> OcDoc I have read of that... possibly. I am more inclined towards some major funds transfers in Austria around then
<OcDoc> Free: the question is: how do you know?
<FreeTrade> Microsoft was not truely a monopoly
<ScrwySqrl> Ko: what are you using to connect to the Internet?
<KoBushi> FreeTrade I agree
<OcDoc> pilgrim: but WHY were the transfers?
<KoBushi> ScrwySqrl does everyone on earth connect to the internet?
<pilgrim`> Free MS is not a cl***ic monopoly, becasue the cl***ics didn't have computers
<KoBushi> ScrwySqrl there are lots of people who haven't purchased an MS product
<ScrwySqrl> no, ko. But I didn't ask that
<FreeTrade> In the economic world they would call it a oligopoly. But it wasnt even that.
<KoBushi> ScrwySqrl yeah but your question is irrelivant to the topic
<FreeTrade> A judge ruling that something is a monopoly doesnt make it so.
<KoBushi> ScrwySqrl your claim was that when there i a monopoly, EVERYONE buys from them
<hans_kung> does in his court though.
<KoBushi> and that simply isn't the case
<pilgrim`> OcDoc The Balkan Question; what it was really about was how the Crown was admining Serbian monies
<hans_kung> Judge can put you behind bars. That's a powerful opinion.
<FreeTrade> in fact I bet in the future when they study business models and msft they will say that it was not a monopoly.
<hans_kung> sorry :)
<KoBushi> There has never ever been a monopoly from which EVERYONE purchased something.
<StayFresh> Bush Admin is finished with the indictments coming up of rove and libby
<FreeTrade> Not by economic terms.
<cyr> ScrwySqrl: Maybe they are moving away from the Northeast?
<StayFresh> Bush admin polls will drop even lower
<FreeTrade> legal != Economic
<cyr> ScrwySqrl: Theres always competition, just remember that.. doesnt matter how brutal the monopoly looks
<ScrwySqrl> The cl***ic Monopoly, Ko, is your local Power Company. Or AT&T before the breakup. If you want the item (Power, Water, Telephone Service) you have to buy it from them.
<FreeTrade> Most monopolies are state run.
<FreeTrade> Utilities
<StayFresh> GE
<rond> Stayfresh can you predict the future ?
<StayFresh> is state run
<Abydos313> bush needs to clean house with rove and libby.. he is embarr***ing the country
<KoBushi> ScrwySqrl yeah, but not everyon always wants those goods/services
<OcDoc> the only monopolies possible in the real world are government-enforced
<StayFresh> rond the talk in washington is that indicments are gonna come today or tomorrow
<FreeTrade> And to some extent the state had no choice in the past to create such monopolies.
<rond> Stayfresh can you predict the future ?
<KoBushi> ScrwySqrl thus, not everyone purchases from them which was your invalid claim
<StayFresh> either libby or rove or both will be indicted.
<ScrwySqrl> Tmorrow, most likely
Return to politics
or
Go to some related
logs:
rock
dmg k3b
politics
cache:3qFREJc3HzEJ:www.irclogs.ws/freenode/xorg/21
|
|