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<bmc> you can win them one of two ways
<Hangfire> you're a handbook for demagoguery
<DarthBurg> offer em free ****
<bmc> voluntarily of forcefully
<bmc> or*
<DarthBurg> "Vote for me, Free Money"
<Glock21> Like "free" healthcare
<Hangfire> ding ding ding!
<Airbuster> no, hang. debate and demagoguery are different things
<Hangfire> lowest common denominator
<Pickle> Okay, I've got to find and document an example of someone using "wit capital" to generate significant media advertising attention for little cost.
<Airbuster> sticking with the fact while debating is always the way to go
<Hangfire> Glock21 like maybe "these people are the cause of all our problems"?
<bmc> america needs a few psychopathic rebel leaders
<Pickle> Something like Dennis Rodman and his idiotic schtick.
<DeDannan> debate is a logical process...demagoguery...is what happens in here...a lot..
<Glock21> Hangfire... that's a big one right now in the US.
<Hangfire> DeDannan it's what's happening here now
<Hangfire> meh
<DarthBurg> Pickle Franken stealing book titles
<DeDannan> Hangfire, nod
<Glock21> Everything is the Republican Party's fault... they're in charge.
<Glock21> Seems to be working in the polls too.
<Glock21> People are more likely to trust a dem over a repub on almost all national issues atm.
<Disbelief> Pickle - Most media outlets have highlighted both the "grim milestone" and the constitutional ratification. Keep in mind the constitution was LONG EXPECTED to be ratified (those majoirty shia aspiring to theocracy like to vote, after all), and the 2,000 dead americans signifies an quantitative judgment of the war's costs.
<Pickle> DarthBurg: Ah, good example. Although I think that "Rush Limbaugh is a Big Fat Idiot" is better.
<Disbelief> Pickle - i'd like to see your 'evidence' that this is ideological.
<DarthBurg> Pickle that was the one I was thinking of, he did put out a book before that, which failed miserably
<Hangfire> Glock21 how about "social darwinism"?
<DarthBurg> Disbelief puhleese, Cindy Sheehan got more Ink than the Iraqi political process. NO BIAS HERE
<ajofi> glock21: The only one they are still good on is on handling terrorism.
<DarthBurg> "tax cuts for the Rich" NO BIAS HERE "BUSH LIED" No Bias Here "Bush Knew" no bias here
<ajofi> "are still good on" = per the latest polls
<ajofi> I actually think neither of them have demonstrated any compentency at handling terrorism...
<Pickle> Disbelief: Here's an example of how they reported the constitution story... Three quarters of this particular piece had **** all to do with the constitution: http://www.breitbart.com/news/2005/10/25/D8DF3V003.html
<bmc> their are other polls that tell more of the story
<bmc> like on immigration issues
<bmc> and eminent domain
<bmc> abortion, gay marriage
<bmc> all play a part is approval ratings
<DarthBurg> I could help the Donks win the gay marriage thing
<Pickle> Disbelief: And as for it being ideological, that's demonstrated by the consistent and documented way that the media has reported on Iraq to suit one particular ideological bent. It's self-evident where the bias lies, and furthermore, the actual political leanings of media figures is now a matter of documented polling results: They're Democrats.
<Rebec> hi darth
<DarthBurg> hi rebec
<bmc> poll results against bush could really be poll results against repbulicans on whole
<bmc> they like to word things vaguely to fool the ignorant m***es
<DarthBurg> DStewart
<Rebec> bmc yeah or word things too specifically
<Rebec> or making it so you have to say no to say yes or vice versa
<Rebec> I've seen some really bad polls out there
<DarthBurg> "Since Bush Illegally invaded Iraq, How do you feel about the war?"
<DarthBurg> "When you profit from someone, How long do you feel bad?"
<Rebec> Darth but he didn't illegally invade
<bmc> no they could ask something like this
<DarthBurg> Rebec, touche
<Pickle> "Today, the Iraqis certified their constitution. Oh yeah, and DEATH DEATH DEATH DEATH QUAGMIRE INSURGENTS DEATH DEATH DEATH
<bmc> bah, i and at a block
<bmc> am*
<bmc> i forgot what i was gonna say
<Rebec> Darth my favorite was this woman at church "we should invite the press in to demonstrate that we are following the geneva convention at gitmo" so I said "the convention prohibits that" and she said "We should invite the press in to show we are following the convention"
<Rebec> must have gone round like that for 10 minutes
<Rebec> so I was like ok break the convention to show you're following it?
<bmc> ok here i got it
<DarthBurg> Logic and Reason are the quickest way to get frustrated by liberals.
<Disbelief> Pickle - nearly EVERY dispatch from iraq comes in this form: delivering lots of news in one story. YOu realize that writers don't choose headlines, right? Editors frequently do. If you expect a story merely to reflect what the headline says, you're not familiar with how journalism works. This is not evidence of bias. this is evidence of common press practice. By the way, the AP wire can be chosen to be carried or not by ANY publication.
<Rebec> Darth well I have a copy of all 4 conventions here too I could have brought them in lol
<bmc> they ask if you support bushes policy on immigration, and they will use that NO answer to imply it means they support the opposite plan
<DarthBurg> Journalism is not about making accurate hedlines? No ****?
<DarthBurg> i think that is readily apparent
<Rebec> Darth yeah accurate headlines are rare...and yeah no **** I have copies of geneva and all kinds of other things
<DStewart> Hi, Darth
<Pickle> Disbelief: The problem is, nearly EVERY dispatch from Iraq seems to focus on bad **** and minimize the positive news--***uming that news isn't ignored completely. The constitution versus "grim milestone" issue is an irrefutably clear example of this.
<DarthBurg> Disbelief "The Memo's were fake, but the story is true."
<Pickle> Disbelief: And the writers don't always choose the stories, no--but so what? I didn't single out reporters, though they are certainly part of the problem.
<Rebec> Pickle did you set the topic earlier about the iraqi constitution? that was cool to see
<Pickle> Rebec: Yes
<Rebec> Thank you for setting it, it was awesome to see that up
<Disbelief> Pickle - i don't think that's the case, really. and its not a zero-sum game. most MSM outlets reported on BOTH stories, in equal fashion. it wasn't a choice between one or the other.
<DarthBurg> equal fasion?
<DStewart> Disbelief, the bias is shown in the stories. Those with lots of news, those with a little. (Many wire stories are half a dozen one- to two-line paragraphs long.)
<DarthBurg> Equal fashion, to both sides?
<DarthBurg> when?
<DarthBurg> where?
<Rebec> hi timur
<DStewart> Most MSM media outlets didn't report on both in equal fashion.
<Timur> hi Rebec!
<Pickle> Disbelief: Most MSM outlets did no such thing. A few did, and most of them are ones that are typically slagged as being tools of the eeevul conservababatibs, like Fox News.
<DStewart> Major newspapers put the constitution vote inside in the 20s pages.
<Rebec> DS that;'s sad
<DarthBurg> just take the hubbub over the CIA leak case, every story written contains doom and gloom for the whitehouse. why is that?
<tweek> you abbreviate 'mainstream media' as MSM and it's likely you're going to eventually catch someone with a slant :)
<Rebec> it should be front page
<DStewart> Had there been spectacular deaths they'd have gotten it on the front page.
<Pickle> Most MSM outlets did exactly what the AP did--minimize the good news and focus on the bad (and less important, for that matter).
<bmc> why should the constitution be front page?
<Rebec> bmc it's a HUGE milestone
<bmc> it shouldnt matter where they put it as long as its covered
<DStewart> Pickle, and put characterizations ahead of (actually in place of) specific facts.
<Rebec> bmc I think it's a watershed it should be front page
<DStewart> bmc, really? It shouldn't matter?
<bmc> thats just looking for something to criticize
<Pickle> DStewart: Yes.
<pilgrim`> the COnstitution in Iraq; 1st major step to us getting the heck out
<Rebec> I'm not looking for something to criticize I am remarking about the conversation around me
<DStewart> bmc, so the front page is no more prominent a place to put a story than page C28?
<DarthBurg> if we were just looking to criticise, we would not have people making livings out of lampooning the press
<Disbelief> Firstly, you people who see this as evidence of "liberal media bias" are basing this on your ***umptions of waht liberals and conservatives want to see. you're ***uming liberals don't care about the political aspects of nascent iraq democracy (absolutely true) and you're also ***uming that conservatives don't want to hear about more troop casualties ( also untrue)
<bmc> DStewart there are multiple stories in every issue that could make front page
<bmc> they cant put everyone on there
<Rebec> the Iraqi Constitution should be on the front though bmc
<bmc> plenty of times we have local events front page ahead of national disasters
<Rebec> that's a watershed moment
<Disbelief> "grim milestone" isn't the speak of liberals, its the speak of a media who's ultimate bias is to selling itself.
<pilgrim`> DS to my bird, it doesn't matter, and as linign his cage is the only use I can think of for most US papers, no, it does not matter
<bmc> does that mean theyre biased?
<DStewart> Disbelief, your first statement is a mere ***ertion against actual evidence. It's a nullity, factually false.
<tnzr> http://cvcl.mit.edu/gallery.htm
<Disbelief> i meant to say 'untrue' in the first part.
<DarthBurg> Disbelief spouts a lot of factually false info.
<bmc> death toll in iraq reaches 2k is a big story
<bmc> iraqi const. p***ed is a big story
<Pickle> Disbelief: Yeah, sure. It just so happens that in the course of "selling itself" the "mainstream" media seems to pick the SAME ****ING SLANT EVERY TIME. Now, you go ahead and dismiss that as "salesmanship" if you want.
<bmc> they made their choice, who really cares?
<Rebec> bmc the constitution is a bigger story
<Rebec> that demonstrates the Sunni's ability to compromise etc. It's a big deal
<bmc> washington post had the constitution front page
<Rebec> bmc good for them
<DStewart> No, "grim milestone" isn't the speak of soemone trying to "sell itself." That's not a bias.
<bmc> so there MSM didnt not cover t
<Rebec> no wonder I like them
<DeDannan> so did the NYT apparently
<DeDannan> and the Chicago Trib..LA Times...
<Rebec> DeDan I read the times too but only online these days I can't get it at home
<DarthBurg> Disbelief how about photoshopping photo's? that OK to do?
<tnzr> only if its condie rice
<bmc> 2k dead in a grim milestone
<tnzr> and you are making her look like a demon!
<bmc> they had been expecting it awaiting confirmation
<Rebec> tnzr LMAO
<Disbelief> pickle - well that's not true at all. when the NYT was running Judy Miller's bull**** stories promoting alluminum tubes and anthax fearmongering, were they 'bias' in favor of the war, (and presumably in favor of conservative ideals) ? no, they weren't.
<DeDannan> Rebec, which leads me to think the notion that its being "underreported" is a matter of perception vs reality
<Rebec> bmc but the fact that it happened is important
<bmc> maybe they could have verfied sooner so reporting it along side the constitution wouldnt appear a bias
<Rebec> and significantly so
<bmc> funny how that worked out
<Pickle> Iraq is a quagmire. Grim milestone. Ignore the constitution. The Republicans are all going to jail, at least the ones that aren't devouring their young over the Meirs nomination. It's the same slagging **** every time, from the same angle. You can't tell me that the only way to sell papers is to come off as a leftwing ideologue.
<bmc> almost like it was meant to be that way
<DarthBurg> Disbelief funny, Judith Miller went to jail, but Dan Rather never. why?
<Rebec> DeDannan probably it depends where people look I am guessing.
<DeDannan> Rebec, well..I'd think that the papers with the largest circulations in the country might be a good place to start :)
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