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<nomazda> what a silly win
<DarthBurg> Disbelief whats Bill Orielly got to do with anything?
<jhicks> JanetB: we'll see :)
<Disbelief> i was contrasting him to rush
<DStewart> Darth, smoke screen, that's what.
<nomazda> DStewart i think its the PA's fault because they opened up that day
<nomazda> :P
<tweek> he's a douchebag, while Rush is just a blowhard.
<DStewart> mmm, maybe
<Disbelief> bill o'reilly is a lot like rush, but without the honesty about his own ideals.
<Pickle> Oh, and meanwhile, the only people reporting on the Galloway issue appears to be Fox News. As if he's just some minor figure in the anti-war movement rather than a spiritual leader of the "withdraw now" gang of ***holes.
<DarthBurg> Disbelief topic change more likely
<Timur> Katey: no, we're doing mainly one thing, and that's imposing force and making the nations of the area realize we will respond with force with attacked. Coming in second is stabilizing them and serving as a catalyst to reform them. In any case, whether those nations become democracies or not (and if they are, they won't be all that similar to ours for profound reasons), they will not have governments that will act as if their actions are
<jhicks> ok, time for guitar pratice
<jhicks> er, practice
<tweek> the two poles of the talk show host personality.
<hans_kung> JanetB: Gary Hart was a leading senator on the Intel committee that was responsible writing the current statue during the early 1970s; and he said pretty much it was broken.
<DeDannan> hmmm..Limbaugh's foray into TEEVEE was kind of embarr***ing, really...his shtick doesn't translate well to video
<Timur> and that's the reality of it.
<JanetB> jhicks... well, if no law was broken, and they are trying to trump up charges, on an issue that was invalid... I have to say, they broke no laws at all :)
<Rebec> later all
<tweek> both, of course, literally have fat heads.
<hans_kung> Senator Hart claimed it was written because the Nixon White House was furious over leaks about Vietnam.
<Disbelief> hans - that's a TECHNICALITY!
<DarthBurg> Gary Hart? a little monkey business for ya?
<Pickle> O'Reilly is like Rush? That must be why O'Reilly has spent weeks spouting the most ridiculous, anti-capitalist crapola imaginable about oil prices.
<tweek> anyway, what's the real topic? Libbygate?
<tweek> Pickle: like I said, a douchebag. he'll whine about anything as long as he thinks his audience also is whining about it.
<Disbelief> Libby-Rovegate
<DarthBurg> Gary Hart has all the credibility of a typical lefty, none.
<Katey> Timur, well, I'm just not that optimistic that we'll meet with the success that the architects of this poilicy believe we will.
<Pickle> I suspect that the people who accuse O'Reilly of being a rightwinger have no ****ing clue what O'Reilly actually says every night. They're too busy replaying the Jeremy Glick clip.
<tweek> I'm not sure much will come of it. don't get your hopes up, DNC. :)
<Katey> Timur, I think that the US often misjudges these things.
<RustyFord> WASHINGTON - Sen. John Kerry says President Bush should bring home 20,000 troops from Iraq over the Christmas holidays if the December parliamentary elections there are successful.
<JanetB> hans.. the attorney who wrote it differs :)
<JanetB> and we care what Kerry thinks?
<Airbuster> O'reilley doesn't seem to have much familiarity with the Constitution either, always calling for executive orders and demaning that things (protected by the Bill of Rights) be outlawed
<Disbelief> pickle - i watch o'reilly a fair amount. he definitely is a right-winger, perhaps not to your specifications, but i most definitely think that someobdy who uses "secularist" as a pejorative is right-wing.
<DarthBurg> RustyFord might even be doable
<Airbuster> but he is entertaining
<Katey> Timur, And honestly, such a hawkish policy toward that region has a lot more tooth to it if it's an international effort, with lots of muscle
<Pickle> Like the columnist for that Dallas newspaper who accused O'Reilly "and his callers" on The O'Reilly Factor of spouting anti-Mexican hate. That was just too hilarious.
<Timur> Katey: it depends what is meant by success... if it means that the governments in the area will be loathe to commit, encourage or allow terrorists to commit acts against the US or US interests, then imo that's success. If success means making a blissful fully tolerant set of democracies, that will take longer.
<tweek> DarthBurg: would free up a bit of resources, but ... no need to rush it.
<RustyFord> i was thinking that too Darth
<Pickle> Never mind that there ARE no callers on The O'Reilly Factor.
<DarthBurg> yeah, to bad the vaunted Global community took the time to line their pockets
<Timur> Katey: I agree, I think we should be a lot more hawkish.
<Disbelief> pickle - his radio show has callers, and his right-wing ideolgoy is more obvious there. he tones it down for Fox.
<Airbuster> I like the bit about O'reilley defending Christmas and other aspectect of our culture, tho
<tweek> Pickle: he reads his own fanmail on-air.
<Timur> which is why I'm not displeased with Bolton being where he is, and I hope he's fully backed up by the administration, and his stance, by the next.
<tweek> he throws in a few of the weaker complaints, too.
<Pickle> Disbelief: He is definitely no such thing. He is definitely a populist in the mould of Teddy Roosevelt, a fact which he doesn't dispute.
<tweek> every now and then he'll point out the obvious fallacy in the complaint.
<Katey> Timur, I think that even your least lofty view of success seems pretty difficult. So the governments don't OVERTLY support terrorism any longer. I don't know if that will have much impact in the end
<tweek> most of the time, it just follows.
<DarthBurg> I have developed the belief that anything that is based on fact, logic, and reason, is bashed as "Right Wing Bias"
<DarthBurg> "2+2=4" you must be a right winger
<tweek> odd time to bring that up, given topic :)
<Airbuster> true, Darth
<Timur> Katey: overt and covert, both, and yes, I'm quite certain withdrawing both forms of support would make a huge difference.
<Katey> Timur, terrorist organizations are diffuse and have lots of avenues through which they can get what they need. I'm not even sure that what this or that government does (short of a sincere crackdown, which I don't think we'll get) will have much impact.
<tweek> not that I want to be pushed into defending the 'MSM'...
<Pickle> Disbelief: O'Reilly rakes up whatever muck will draw the public's attention, takes up the opinion generally favoured by most people, and ruthlessly attacks anyone displaying an opposing view. That's why he has at differing times attacked capitalism, supported capitalism, attacked marijuana legalization, suggested he supports it, etc. He's not any sort of "winger", he's a cheap con artist.
<Timur> Katey: it's actually about both governmental support, and changing the culture of the area
<SonOfSpam> Karl Rove and Scooter Libby: THE PUBLIC REACTION - http://cagle.msnbc.com/working/051025/cagle00.gif
<hans_kung> I did enjoy Gary Hart's story about how this statue came about, I didn't know it was the Nixon White House that was behind it.
<Disbelief> Pickle - his made-for-fox-news persona is that of a "i'm lookin out for the little guy populist" but its just an act. one that even Rush limbaugh dispenses with. Rush limbaugh doesn't care if you're poor, and he'll say so! O'reilly also doesn't care, but he'll act like he supports the idea of making you not poor.
<Pickle> Disbelief: Yes, but "The O'Reilly Factor" isn't his radio show.
<Katey> Timur, changing the culture?
<Timur> if people realize that such support is costly to them, such support won't likely maintain
<Katey> Timur, that's a huge task...monumental
<Timur> yep, a culture that perceives terrorism as a legitimate form of policy
<Katey> It would require tremendous pressure
<Timur> it is, and so is our response.
<Airbuster> many over at CNN and other papers are, I believe, actively trying to screw up the US for some reason which I can't quite put my finger on
<Timur> both that of the US and the EU
<Disbelief> pickle - well the name of his show is 'the radio factor' or something similarily named, so its easy for people to conflate the two.
<tweek> he actually suggested he supported legislation that would legalize marijuana??
<Katey> Timur, but the reality is we don't have unlimited resources for this effort
<Airbuster> perhaps they're being paid by forgeign govts
<Timur> Air: because it makes money short-term
<tweek> holy ****. he's more of a douchebag than I thought
<Katey> Timur, nor do we have an endless stomach for it
<Timur> Katey: no one claims unlimited anything
<Airbuster> Timur, they'
<Airbuster> Timue, they operate in many other countries
<Katey> Timur, what you're suggesting will take a lengthy and costly effort
<Timur> do we have a stomach for the p***ivity which will yield more 9/11s or worse, and the impact that would have?
<DarthBurg> we do not have the resources to hunt down terrorists? sure we do.
<Timur> http://www.lastbestchance.org
<Pickle> Disbelief: Yes, it is easy--if, like that columnist, you get your information from anti-O'Reilly websites rather than actually listening to him. Otherwise she might have caught the sympathetic comments by O'Reilly towards immigrants that he played in response to her nonsense.
<Katey> Timur, I don't think that the two choices are p***ivity and ...whatever it is we're doing now
<Timur> not choosing to act is a choice, and a more costly one
<Airbuster> why is nate popping in and out repeatedly?
<Katey> Timur, there are lots of ways to act
<Timur> Katey: like?
<Disbelief> hans_kung - sweet irony that Richard Nixon's legacy -- one of the dirtiest in history -- is now coming back to imperil an arguably dirtier republican administration. you just can't make this stuff up.
<Katey> Timur, training of foreign troops in the nations that we seek to influence
<DarthBurg> Disbelief well, yes, most of it is made up
<Timur> remember it's a culture that interprets kindness as weakness. It's macho.
<DStewart> It's not even arguably dirty, let alone arguably dirtier.
<tweek> anti-websites are already biased, but most operate on fact. they're the best way to spread disinformation ever.
<DarthBurg> Disbelief who has been indicted?
<Katey> Timur, using aid and/or sanctions to press for what we want
<Timur> Katey: no way aroudn that, that's simply how the world works.
<Disbelief> dstewart - oh no, not at all. its on the up n up.
<DStewart> Darth, you remember the numerous arrests of Bush admin officials.
<Disbelief> HAHA
<Katey> Timur, but most of all, gathering a large, international effort
<Katey> Timur, I'm not talking about kindness
<DarthBurg> DStewart I must have missed THAT perp walk
<DStewart> Disbelief, your usual quality of argument. "HAHA." Great.
<Timur> Katey: indeed, but such an effort can only come about once there is a willingness to do so
<Pickle> Disbelief: And once again, your comments about O'Reilly don't add up to ****. He clearly IS a populist, that clearly IS his schtick. He takes up any position, on any end of the spectrum, that serves to whip up the booboisie into a frenzy, and he takes heat from all political sides for it--the clearest sign of a populist out of anything.
<Katey> I'm not sure why you keep bringing it ip
<Katey> up*
<Timur> Katey: because a kinder, softer, gentler war on terror wouldn't work.
<Katey> Timur, Well, we've done a piss poor job in that dept
<DStewart> Disbelief, can you SPECIFY the ways in which the Bush admin is dirty?
<Katey> Timur, it's not about kind or soft or gentle
<Katey> Timur, it's about getting the most benefit for the least cost
<DarthBurg> particularly which laws have been broken, and by whom?
<JanetB> how many in the clinton admin went to jail?
<Pickle> Disbelief: And the clearest example of this once again has been his daily attacks on oil companies for weeks on end now.
<DStewart> Or is characterization supposed to be evidence?
<tweek> Pickle: but who cares, because he already has his audience, and since he usually tries to form his opinions around them, he won't lose them for a while. - any new ***hats to pick on?
<Airbuster> populists don't help when it comes to controlling the size and scope of govt power
<Timur> Katey: too early to tell, but if so, that's the cost of our collective bubble of combined arrogance on one hand (or wishful thinking) and a lack of willingness to devote the necessary resources
<DStewart> A list of Bush admin officials who've been arrested:
<Disbelief> DStewart - obviously the current cia leak investigation is a clear example of the severity of their dirtiness.
<DStewart> Anyone got one?
<DStewart> Disbelief, obviously that's a false claim.
<Disbelief> wait til friday.
<RustyFord> DStewart only one
<Airbuster> O'reilley should not be calling for executive orders when they're unconstitutional
<DStewart> I thought it was "wait til Monday"---last week.
<Pickle> If it were 80 years ago, H.L, Mencken would be attacking Bill O'Reilly every day.
<RustyFord> and i can't remember his name
<Kurt2> a war on terrorism only creates more terrorism.... a War on drugs is even more dumb.
<Airbuster> I like Bush's restraint in that matter
<DarthBurg> Who, specifically, has gone to jail?
<DStewart> Disbelief, oh, and what IS dirty about the CIA name release?
<Timur> it still doesn't make a forceful response either worthless or impossible
<DarthBurg> who, specifically, broke the law?
<DStewart> Also, tell me how it was a "leak."
<Timur> lame analogy
<Pickle> It's a shame that there is no H.L. Mencken today; the closest thing to it is Christopher Hitchens, and he's not really a good example himself.
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