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<CometBaby> those are terms used by the religious right .. of which I am not a member
<ChaosMage> doesn't a legal contract have benefits similar to marriage?
<hans_kung> <--defies labels such as "lefty" or "liberal." I am very pro gun, hawkish, and gun ho for the good ole U.S.A. But I am a very liberal guy when it comes to social issues or the role of govt.
<Katey> Ack, I worded that poorly. But basically it's a pretty open-ended piece of legislations that's basically meant to undermine the efforts that gay couples go to to create some legal arrangements surrounding their relationship
<Disbelief> hans_kung - not just that....the clear distinction that the fate of the country rests on cultural lines...over issues of stem cell research, abortion, homo***uality, *** education, right to die, ect.
<FreeTrade> And where the family fails the Government takes over, it becomes the parent, the provider etc.
<OcDoc> Free: but it's not so easy to proove cause vs. effect
<FreeTrade> Its not in the interest of the state to see families with children break up..
<Disbelief> CometBaby - on what issues and qualities do you depart from the religious right ?
<Katey> There have been concerns that it could have a negative impact on ANY two people of the same *** that own a home together, etc. Even siblings
<ChaosMage> irc is usually full of liberals but this channel seems to have a disproporionate number of convervatives
<OcDoc> Free: you have to eliminate the larger effect of socioeconomic status
<Katey> It's very open ended
<FreeTrade> OcDoc, when studies consistantly show that to be a correlation, and when studies actually show it to be a cause I dont see how you can think otherwise, Married families are not on welfare except rarely.
<CometBaby> Disbelief I repeat .. I never use the term pro-abortion or anti-life. Those are terms used by the religious right of which I am not a member. So tell me what else you have convicted me of.
<FreeTrade> Kids with a strong bond with their father rarely end up in prison.
<CometBaby> Disbelief .. for one thing .. I am not religious.
<FreeTrade> And if you ask gang members, they will tell you the gang is the family.
<FreeTrade> its psuedo family and there has been so much research in this area.
<OcDoc> Free: well, you just said why ... socioeconomic status way outweighs marital status, and many marriages exist where the husband isn't at home
<FreeTrade> But all that Aside, I am talking about the genesis of the governments interest in Marraige.
<CometBaby> Disbelief you are off base and out-of-line. Don't characterize me when I am gone .. charging and convicting me of things I do not say
<Disbelief> CometBaby - alright then, on what issues do you differ from the religious right, of which you're not a part of?
<Disbelief> 'charging and convicting' you? what are you talking about.
<Disbelief> you're not being persecuted
<OcDoc> Free: government's interest in marriage started two centuries ago to protect women who had no other protection
<CometBaby> disbelief .. I told you .. I am not religious. I am not going to give you any more explanation because I don't owe you any. You are accusing me and I don't' have to explain myself to you.
<OcDoc> now women have more or less equal rights and no longer need protection
<FreeTrade> OcDoc, The point is that the governments interest in marraige was famililial. But its also a tradition for hetero***ual unions, and divorce is legal because there is no perfect system.
<CometBaby> you explain why you say what you do .. and you are WRONG.
<CometBaby> can't you just apologize and not do it again?
<OcDoc> Free: shrug ... I disagree
<FreeTrade> Religion and tradition play roles in marraige which are important. And you dont need a government law to have that.
<ChaosMage> OcDoc: I think marriage exists to promote the christian marriage as the way to be
<ChaosMage> Legal marriage anyway
<FreeTrade> Gays can marry in churches now, symbolically and they do.
<OcDoc> Free: the origins of marriage laws are 1) religious; and 2) to protect the rights of women
<ChaosMage> what churches?
<ChaosMage> churches of satan?
<FreeTrade> there is no state interest in gay marraige since they produce few families
<Disbelief> CometBaby - you say you're not religious....don't you attend church ?
<FreeTrade> and the super majority of Americans oppose it.
<FreeTrade> So I give you etymology and I give you contemporary politics.
<ChaosMage> Free: I don't think that the state cares about families one way or the other
<OcDoc> Free: laws actively prevent gay marriages from resulting in families
<hans_kung> what about state interest in marriages that don't produce children, for either biological reasons, or just pure choice?
<CometBaby> Disbelief .. no I do not.
<FreeTrade> But the reason I propose it is because its changing the definition of a term which existed for over 2000 years to exclusively refer to hetero***ual unions..
<CometBaby> I do not belong to any church.
<OcDoc> hans: side issue
<FreeTrade> There is nothing prejudicial to gays there, they can have homo***ual unions.
<CometBaby> Now .. either you admit you are wrong or I am going to ban you
<DeDannan> Unitarian/Universalist Churches, United Churches of Christ both have same *** "blessing" ceremonies...
<CometBaby> I've had enough of this ****
<FreeTrade> Noone is stopping them and most people if you believe polls are not anti gay.
<Disbelief> cometbaby - why have you ***ailed arguments against the sanctity of the 10 commandments then ?
<OcDoc> Free: I'd be interested in your evidence for non-religious marriages going back 2000 years
<ChaosMage> Comet: haha good one
<ChaosMage> Comet: "Admit I'm right or I'll ban you"
<FreeTrade> OcDoc, up till recently there was not much interest in gay marraige.
<CometBaby> Chaos .. admit he is wrong. He is the one who is accusing falsely.
<ChaosMage> Comet: if he's not admitting he is wrong then he obviously doesn't think he is wrong
<ChaosMage> just because you think he is wrong doesn't make it true
<FreeTrade> It is in my attempt a desire to consume a hetero***ual, religious, historical, etymological institution and replace it with their own.
<Disbelief> CometBAby - i guess i'm wrong about your religious leanings. if that offended you i'm sorry. but i stand by my statement that you seem to wage a cultural fight, though its apparently for personal/political reasons, rather than religious-based ones.
<CometBaby> Disbelief .. a new tact? Your characterization of me as religious failed .. as a church goer failer .. so now you want to try a new tact?
<FreeTrade> Since in history marraige in the sense of ***ual union has always been hetero***ual to almost all people.
<DarthBurg> actually, it was, admit you are wrong, something some people have a really tough time with.
<Disbelief> i'm not "trying" you
<CometBaby> five
<FreeTrade> And 10 years ago, Gays were against gay marraige.
<CometBaby> four
<FreeTrade> So what could their motive be ?
<Disbelief> would you quit acting like you're being persecuted, when YOU'RE the one threatening to ban me ?
<ChaosMage> I
<CometBaby> three
<OcDoc> Free: you're losing me ... I don't follow you
<CometBaby> two
<DarthBurg> bubye
<ChaosMage> I'd like to see your evidence of this freetrade
<DarthBurg> amazing
<Katey> FreeTrade, I think the simplest and most fair resolution to the issue is to just make all "marriage" as far as the state is concerned, "civil unions" and allow the churches to have the word "marriage"
<DarthBurg> you can lead a liberal to logic, but you just can not make them think
<FreeTrade> Now I am pro gay rights, but I am against attacking institutions which are sacred to a lot of people based on reasons such as religion or secular reasons.
<ChaosMage> let that be a lesson to us all
<ChaosMage> always agree with the ops
<hans_kung> heh
<ChaosMage> CometBaby: So what are your beliefs so I can agree with them?
<FreeTrade> And machiavaelian side of me says it really doesnt matter because the will of the people can prevent it.
<CometBaby> chaos .. I have some channel business .. back in a bit
<FreeTrade> The machiavellian side.
<ChaosMage> people have no will
<ChaosMage> how am I going to avoid being banned if I don't know what to toady about?
<OcDoc> Chaos: don't worry, they'll let you know
<FreeTrade> Sometimes its a matter of , Hey yes I do have a lot of gay friends clients etc, but Sometimes its just a matter of no.. Sorry. You cant have it. Now civil unions are fine and accomplish some of the same goals as marraige.
<hans_kung> no toadies allowed here Chaos :P
<DarthBurg> spout lies and dishonesty, and you will get the same treatment, otherwise, you are good to go
<hans_kung> Darthburg? I've seen some folks here say some very blistering things to other channel users; and nothing was ever done about it. But hey, that's just my take on it.
<pilgrim`> I just got back from a wedding of two gay necrophiliac pederasts. but the party was kinda dead
<Nemes> lol
<FreeTrade> Sometimes fair or not (Seemingly) you dont get what you want.
<OcDoc> yuch
<panini> lol
<DarthBurg> hans_kung yes, but you will discover directing blistering arguments at CometBaby are simply not wise.
<ChaosMage> pilgrim: did you like the hourdourves?
<bumer> pilgrim`; did they kiss in front of the guests ?
<pilgrim`> you are who you eat
<hans_kung> Darthburg: that's overstating the obvious :P
<DarthBurg> hans_kung unless of course, you are right, then its not blistering, you see.
<FreeTrade> And gays wont get marraige because the people are against it.. They p***ed it in hawaii in the legislature, the people ran a ballot measure and said no, over rid the state legislature.
<ChaosMage> Now you have to make a joke about dead young boys osmehow
<hans_kung> Darthburg, I don't btw Disbeleif was blistering either. Just my take too.
<pilgrim`> Free doesn't matter
<pilgrim`> Me***ure 37 in OR
<hans_kung> er I don't think she was blistering. :)
<ChaosMage> I don't have a problem with gay marriage
<FreeTrade> One reason people want conservative (Stricter constructionists) on the courts is because the courts have been usurping the rights of the legislative process and the will of the people.
<ChaosMage> I don't see the problem
<ChaosMage> nobody can force the church to let them marry
<FreeTrade> What is measure 37 ?
<pilgrim`> property rights legislation. it p***ed by overwhealming majority; one judge claims it is a bad law and struck it down
<ChaosMage> so who cares if they can inherate from one another
<pilgrim`> what the "peepul" decide means....diddly
<FreeTrade> The church will marry gays, many many of them will.
<FreeTrade> But the state wont recognize it in 48 or 49 states.
<ChaosMage> I wonder if you let the people p*** a law saying all black people can't vote in hawaii if it would p***
<FreeTrade> and I believe eventually in 50
<ChaosMage> or if all gays should be exiled
<ChaosMage> the majority is not smart
<ChaosMage> it is a mob
<OcDoc> Free: there IS still a constitutional issue ... equal protection under the law ... why is the government promoting a religious definition of marriage?
<FreeTrade> Too bad the super majority does rule absolutely
<FreeTrade> And its not anti gay
<hans_kung> Chaos, indeed, that why's the bill of rights was written-- to project people from the tyranny of the majority or the govt
<ChaosMage> The super majority is apparently anti gay
<FreeTrade> Its anti gay marraige, its not anti gay
<jez> FreeTrade: are you anti-gay marriage?
<ChaosMage> Anyway, democracy ****s :p
<pilgrim`> developers want to do their thing; they buy the local government. The don't dare put it up to a vote of the "peepul" when politicans are so much more cost effective
<ChaosMage> everything ****s
<FreeTrade> Noone has complained htat I know of in California where we have had domestic union laws for years.
<ChaosMage> someone come up with a new kind of government
<pilgrim`> the LAW is what ever you can buy
<FreeTrade> I AM anti gay marraige as the state defines it. Yes.. But I am not anti gay.
<OcDoc> pilgrim: sitzkrieg
<Lupine> OcDoc: I agree. NAMBLA should have "equal protection under the law"..
<CometBaby> back
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