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<SweetLeaf> My family was poor did not have money to give me
<MikeyD> lunch
<Lupine> Oh, I have no problem wiht a *true* safety net, for things that happen to people who were responsible.
<SweetLeaf> I said I was not going to be poor
<hans_kung> Panini: uh like, it's a movie, they're entertainment pieces :)
<Oax> MikeyD i'm more for social welfare in the way of helping the children of the poor. since the children aren't quite able to pull themselves out of poverty, but have potential to do so in the future
<SweetLeaf> I have no degree but I made it I own my home and cars etc. bought by me myself
<bmc> uh huh, gumdrops and lollipops and everything else, the world is just so perfect
<panini> hans_kung: in reality, you can take away a rich man's money, and he'll work his way back up again. you can give a poor person a million dollars, and he'll blow it in a few days
<bmc> :P
<panini> hans_kung: exactly, movies are *fiction*. Liberals often do not realize this
<SweetLeaf> You will never get ahead with your hand sticking out wanting a hand out
<bmc> thats false
<ChaosMage> if you take away a rich man's money he'll commit suicide
<bmc> give me a million dollars and i would live the rest of my life very comfortably, i am "poor" atm
<panini> no you wouldn't
<hans_kung> panini, I think the whole point of the movie was to make an entertaining piece about "nature versus nuture." Of course, only you would would reduce it to a liberal versus righty debate :)
<Oax> why is nobody talking about miers?
<pilgrim`> I want 1 million Krugerrands
<panini> you'd hop a plane a vegas and blow it all in 1 weekend
<Lupine> CL***IC EXAMPLES: people who had 5-7 days worth of water/non perisable food deserve help, post-Wilma. Those who didn't have a single bottle of water? they do not "deserve" any help.
<Lupine> pil: are those legal now?
<bmc> why the hell would i go to vegas?
<pilgrim`> Oax she is out. nuff saif
<OcDoc> Oax: what's there to say?
<pilgrim`> said
<SweetLeaf> we have a country full of sissy's these days they are not even expected to serve a couple years in the military shessssssh
<SweetLeaf> that makes little boys become men
<OcDoc> Lupine: it's not an all or none decision
<OcDoc> Lupine: how much emergency water is enough to justify help?
<SweetLeaf> not whinning liberals heh
<bmc> the whole purpose of going to vegas would be to strike it rich, heh if im already there, that sorta defeats the purpose
<panini> hans_kung: it's a reality vs. fantasy debate. Since conservative=reality and liberal=fantasy, I guess you could frame it that way too
<Lupine> OcDoc: I said "deserve".. I didn't say they would not get it. But that is the difference between ***istance and charity
<OcDoc> Lupine: it's a very human thing to help your neighbor out of a jam
<Lupine> OcDOc: oh absolutely. and I am not saying we should not do it, but we OUGHT to make it a point to say "You OUGHT to have been more responsible"
<hans_kung> panini: wrong. <grin>.
<Oax> well. was miers a major ****up for bush, or just more of the usual ?
<OcDoc> Lupine: that's what I mean ... deserve is a slippery concept, very individual thing
<Lupine> ocdoc: as opposed to the ucrrent thinking of allowing everyone think they are "owed" it
<hans_kung> as usual, I might add.
<hans_kung> :)
<Lupine> OcDoc: we had people *****ing monday afternoon "where is FEMA???"..
<hans_kung> OOo botbabe
<OcDoc> Lupine: I agree, but we have to be careful what words we use
<Lupine> ocdoc: i think we should be able to barcode them at the spot, and make it *illegal* to give them ANY ***istance
<bmc> the top bracket gets taxed 50%, someone making $300/wk gets taxed 25%
<panini> hans_kung: you're the one who thought a movie was reality, so I'm correct
<bmc> sounds fair doesnt it
<OcDoc> Lupine: the ability to do that gives way too much power to government IMO
<hans_kung> panini, not really. on either count.
<OcDoc> I don't want to be bar-coded
<Oax> this sounds like an argument you would hear on the playground
<Lupine> yea, but I bet you do not refuse to take any precautions and sit around and demand that FEMA take care of you!!
<OcDoc> Oax: what argument?
<panini> hans_kung: like I said, liberals like to believe it's all luck, because that justifies demanding free govt handouts
<Oax> OcDoc panini vs. hans
<OcDoc> Lupine: that's true, or I try not to ... but some emergencies come out of nowhere, and I'm glad to be in a generous society
<panini> hans_kung: non-losers however know that luck has very little to do with it
<OcDoc> Oax: you don't think the matter of personal responsibility is important?
<hans_kung> panini, wrong.
<Lupine> ocdoc: oh sure, but if you read my preface.. I said there should be a real safety net.. as things DO happen without any personal responsibility
<Oax> OcDoc i was commenting on the form of the argument, not the actual substance
<OcDoc> Lupine: yup
<OcDoc> Oax: I see
<panini> hans_kung: considerign you're one of the aforementioned losers, of course you would say that :)
<Lupine> Ocdoc: the beauty is.. the more citizens who stand up for themselves.. the faster aid can be rendered to those who truely need them.
<OcDoc> Lupine: usually, yes
<Lupine> OcDoc: for example, I voulunteed over 14 hours of swinging the chainsaw this week alone.
<OcDoc> Lupine: good, guy ...
<Lupine> why? because I took care of my family before the storm, so I could leave and help others
<Lupine> but so many sat around and did nothing.. they can't help themselves, let alone help society.
<Lupine> i.e. parasites
<TimothyW> panini : what happen if something on a TV show becomes real or seems so real that a Agent checks out the Reality of it. Somethings harm sources and methods if a Agent actually looks for something.
<OcDoc> Lupine: it's system-wide, a result of the decadence of amurican society
<hans_kung> panini: remember, when you point a finger at someone, you're really pointing more back at yourself. So be careful at insulting people, it just shows a weaker mind/argument.
<panini> TimothyW: you mean like X-Files?
<TimothyW> panini : no.
<TimothyW> panini : I'm talking about the West Wing.
<OcDoc> hans: I've always heard that said, but it's not even a little bit true
<hans_kung> OcDoc: *shrug*
<hans_kung> I've always heard ad homs are just bad logic. :)
<Lupine> hans: tell me.. what does it say about myself when I point to someone, who didn't even buy one bottle of water before a major hurricane.. and say "you are lazy, you are uwilling to even help yourself"..?
<OcDoc> hans: when I point a finger at you, I'm only pointing a finger at you ... why would you think otherwise
<bmc> yea its all the poor peoples fault, not the fact that they pay 1/4 of their living expense to the government when they could barely afford to live to begin with, couldnt have anything to do with
<panini> hans_kung: lol! Is that what your mommy told you?
<Lupine> hans: alot of insults are NOT ad hominem attacks.
<hans_kung> sure Lupine, they're just insults.
<OcDoc> hans: unless you mean, whenever I say something it also says something about myself?
<Lupine> poor people dont pay 25% income tax
<TimothyW> panini : something can be so real but fake and it harms a source or method or something.
<Lupine> hans: might I suggest you education yourself on the definition of what an ad hominem attack is? it is NOT just an "insult"
<bmc> $10/hr and living on your own is poor
<OcDoc> bmc: no one said anything about "fault" and I don't approve of taxing the poor
<hans_kung> Lupine, dood, I know what it is. Are we now going to argue over insults versus ad homs? :) And panini is a big ole loser?
<hans_kung> because he can't understand a simple statement about a movie?
<OcDoc> bmc: I've been there in my younger days and enjoyed it immensely at the time
<hans_kung> And turns into a liberal/conservative debate? :)
<hans_kung> Because he's got issues?
<bmc> well $10/hr a decade ago would have been decent
<bmc> with rent/mortgages and such and all aroudn cost of living now, its nothing
<OcDoc> bmc: well, it was two fifty back then
<OcDoc> bmc: and I lived in the bunkhouse
<bmc> look at the gas prices
<OcDoc> but I ate steak every day and paid $5 a day for room and board
<bmc> who do you think that hit?
<bmc> the wealthy?
<OcDoc> hans: it's amazing how quiet it gets when you stop talking
<OcDoc> sorry ... couldn't resist
<OcDoc> :-)
<TimothyW> panini : are you here ?
<OcDoc> which OcDoc ignores
<OcDoc> and clears the mash back outta his ears
<hans_kung> party pooper!
<OcDoc> hans: somewhere between total personal responsibility and socialism is where we should be
<hans_kung> I guess. :)
<pilgrim`> State Dept just made some more good business for the coyotes
<OcDoc> but most self-respecting people will be as self-responsible as they can make it
<pilgrim`> RFID with name hat size, sphincter diameter and other biometrics now to be included on p***port
<OcDoc> and try to help the less fortunate in such a way that they become less dependent, not more
<pilgrim`> OcDoc euthenasia?
<OcDoc> pilgrim: har har ... .take no prisoners
<pilgrim`> "Suffer the poor for they will be with thee always" some feller once said
<strider_> hatebreed.. heh
<hans_kung> heavy metal group?
<bmc> and i have no mercy for your soul, your blood is on my hands!
<bmc> arrr, call for blood....
<OcDoc> pilgrim: well, we can't exterminate them and we have to do something about the public health issues, otherwise, let 'em be
<pilgrim`> symphonic conductor....in drag
<strider_> bmc, the lead singer is from here(CT)
<pilgrim`> OcDoc we did. it was called DDT. worked great too...till they caught us at it
<bmc> aaaa let the blood spill
<TimothyW> pilgrim` : Your traveling to a foreign country not your back yard.
<bmc> vengeance is mine
<bmc> :P
<TimothyW> If you have a P***port.
<bmc> that song owns
<OcDoc> pilgrim; you're in rare form today ;-)
<TimothyW> I guess pilgrim is ignoring me.
<pilgrim`> DDT is the reason WWII unlike EVERY OTHER PREVIOUS WAR IN HISTORY was NOT followed by a plauge
<pilgrim`> Tim sorry, I was on phone
<OcDoc> pilgrim: here I've been trying to debunk the myths around DDT diligently and you've set my efforts back at least two years
<pilgrim`> Tim a microwave does a good job of frying RFIDs
<OcDoc> RFID equals?
<OcDoc> radio frequency?
<Oax> radio frequency id tag
<pilgrim`> OcDoc the plastic strips you pull of purchases from WalMart
<OcDoc> oh
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