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<suna> pligrim: no it's not, some people have lives outside of politics
<suna> i was what 18
<suna> please
<suna> no problem
<FreeTrade> Since both sides always draw the stupidist lines when redistricting to protect their own interests so they can not lose.
<West`> no the union dues doesnt make a lot of sense to me, it just is a way to make the unions do a bunch more work when trying to spend money
<pilgrim`> suna "an informed electorate" is what is required to keep this thing working. Stay informed
<West`> it aids corps that can noutspend their employees unions.
<Lupine> GAZA (Reuters) - At least seven Palestinians were killed in an Israeli airstrike on the car of an Islamic Jihad militant in the Gaza Strip on Thursday, medics said.
<Lupine> Among the dead were Jihad's top commander in the northern Gaza Strip, Shahdi Mhanna, and at least one other militant. The identities of the other dead were not immediately clear.
<FreeTrade> no incumbants in cal every lose. in the legislature partly because of their redistricting.
<OcDoc> West: many members of unions would not be members of those unions if they had a choice
<pqdb> "union" clearly refers so somethign other than a collective bargaining group, it's kinda sad
<FreeTrade> this is what they are mad at Delay for in Texas, and if I was a democrat I would be mad too.
<FreeTrade> But the thing you forget is this.
<West`> OcDoc well they can opt out of having any of their money being sent for political reasons
<FreeTrade> The Democrats did it before he did it.
<Lupine> FT: they didn't forget that. They think it is okay for them to do it, but not the GOP
<pilgrim`> Free in 18th cent England it was called "rotten buroughs"
<OcDoc> patient
<West`> its a change that is only to inflict harm on their political power.
<FreeTrade> yeah
<pqdb> unfortunately, gerrymandering distrcits is nearly universal
<Lupine> IMHO: districting needs to have a mathematical test.. such that the regions must be relatively uniform and non-snake like.
<FreeTrade> The point is Arnold in a very non partisan very smart issue oriented way is taking on these unjust actions.
<suna> when that whole davis thing happened was basically right after i got out of rehab, which was 13 months of no external news what so ever. I went in knowing the us was blaming bin laden (i went in on 9/30/01). I got out a bit over a year later and the news was nothing but 'pre-emptive strike on iraq' and the average person in utah did not know the difference between saddam hussain and osama bin laden
<suna> THAT is stupidity
<West`> I was part of a union and no i didnt have a choice, but my wages were $6/hr higher then the other people working at the airport. *shrug*
<pqdb> it's out of control in Georgia, for example. if you want a good laugh check out their congressional districts.
<pqdb> my dad is a union pilot. their standing has pretty much evaporated overnight
<pqdb> they can't do **** anymore
<FreeTrade> West, and now people at airports are being layed off and airlines are going bankrupt.
<pqdb> it's not because of the unions
<FreeTrade> Even unions realize they have to be more reasonable usually today.
<FreeTrade> in the old days the unions owned the companies. or at least the labor.
<West`> I was just in concessions
<FreeTrade> So unions got so big companies went bankrupt
<West`> the airlines are going broke, because AA charges 329 to fly somewhere when southwest charges 120
<pqdb> that's crap
<DeDannan> American Airlines would have posted a profit in the 3rd quarter..save for one reason...soaring fuel costs...
<FreeTrade> and laws were p***ed in many places making union membership not mandatory
<DeDannan> no pun intended
<Lupine> IMHO: a worker has the RIGHT to not have someone "speak on his behalf"
<FreeTrade> No actually its a combination of a lot of factors, one is most definately labor costs.
<West`> southwest is doing fine, the rest spend like drunken 'liberals'
<pqdb> labor is definately a factor however ta the rate we're going, the guy flying the plane will only be makiign $10 an hour
<FreeTrade> GM is going bankrupt it looks like because the union is running them under. At a cost of $65 an hour to GM per worker.
<West`> labor and health care, sure
<DeDannan> West`, their stock has taken a beating over the last 18 months
<pqdb> keep in mind that airlines used to be staffed by military pilots and got what they paid for, especially in safety
<FreeTrade> My friend is a retired pilot..
<pqdb> if pilots become bus drivers, expect a change in the oevrall level of service and safety
<FreeTrade> For United.
<pqdb> my dad is retired Delta
<Lupine> FT: both my father anduncle were pilots in the AF.. but neither went into commercial airlines ( thanksfully ! )
<FreeTrade> The thing is, lay out all the costs of all airport workers, or airline workers and let us see where the wages are ridiculous, if the bagage handlers and clerks are costing $50 an hour its absurd
<pqdb> if you wanan see an example of a hostile union/company relationship, see Northwest
<West`> DeDannan maybe, but they havent tanked like the 'big expensive guys'
<Lupine> pq: Yep. Especially in the ability to handle emergencies.. such that recent Jet Blue incident
<FreeTrade> they may make $19 an hour it may cost $50 an hour.
<FreeTrade> What they cost is more relevant than what they are paid.
<FreeTrade> if they get 10 worth of benefits then they are getting 29 an hour and not 19
<pqdb> well imho wehat has happened is the airlien business model has changed, so any of the legacy carriers cannot compete because of labor
<pqdb> so in essence other airlines have undercut fares but killing the job market at airlines
<FreeTrade> I also think CEOs and Management should not be paid so much if the company is not doing well.
<DeDannan> West`, AMR actually made a profit in the 2nd quarter..before fuel prices started jumping
<pqdb> throw in unpredictables liek 911 and current fuel costs and there iti s
<FreeTrade> But thats a decision for the board who is elected by the OWNERS
<hans_kung> GM woes are due to lack luster designs and market strategy, union workers aren't the source of their woes. Other car makers pay their union workers high salaries, and they're doing ok.
<DarthBurg> want to know who killed the airline job market? look no further than your friendly union
<FreeTrade> Stock owners need a better method to get together to control the companies they own shares in.
<pqdb> that's really not true
<pqdb> Darth
<pilgrim`> union scale is a way to kill an industry
<FreeTrade> Jet Blue Made a profit but I dont know their business model.
<FreeTrade> it should be studied.
<pqdb> but I'm not gonna argue like an afl/cio guy
<DarthBurg> why yes, it really is. but hey, live in your fantasy world were profit is evil. have fun.
<FreeTrade> Jet Blue has been profitable.
<West`> jet blue is similar to southwest i thought, bit more luxury
<hans_kung> again, why is the blame on unions, when you have executives that can walk away from their messes with golden parachutes or stock options that reward bad corporate stewardship?
<pqdb> DarthBurg: don't be a ****. it's only a part of it. to blame the enitre thing on unions is simplistic and ignorant
<FreeTrade> In fact if you kick the union goons out and pay equivalent wages minus union dues you are much better off.
<Brak55> Unions are outmoded and drag industry down. They also stop an ambitious and talented worker from being able to move up in the company.
<DarthBurg> also factual, a company can not survive paying people who do not work.
<DarthBurg> basic econ 101, ignore it, and you get what you got
<West`> hans_kung its easier, and of course, blame those at the bottom
<hans_kung> and jealousy.
<FreeTrade> You fire a guy and the union will send him right back tommorrow.. That definately used to be the case.
<DarthBurg> golden parachutes, as big as they are, are generally a one time shot. compared to pensions, its peanuts, and you know it, or at least, you should.
<hans_kung> I think people are nasty when it comes to workers that make more than them, and feel somehow, they don't earn that salary.
<hans_kung> sports figures, sure, that's ok.
<sym`> Heh, yea I used to work at a Kroger. The majority of the union members did little to nothing
<FreeTrade> Unions have been forced by reality of modern economics and laws to try to have a more friendly and cooperative relationship with management
<hans_kung> that can't even write, but we can pay millions to them because we love sports.
<sym`> It was really irritating to watch to
<hans_kung> But a guy on a sweat line in Detroit making *gasp* 50 an hour, he's the reason GM is floundering, and not do to the white collar types making bad corporate decisions.
<Lupine> hans: no, the reason why are paid huge $$$ is because they represent m***ive marketing potential.
<FreeTrade> Lupine, I am very suspicious of the CIA and Wilson himself.. I think they more or less set is up
<FreeTrade> set it up
<hans_kung> Lupine, I know your take on it, I don't buy the argument though.
<sym`> You're busting your *** and watching some lazy *** moron sit around and talk knowing they get the same pay increases you do
<DarthBurg> the beauty is, who have the the vast majority of Union leadership backed politically? and how has it helped them?
<Lupine> FT: Yep. See, when it first came out, everyone rushed to claim it *had* to be a GOP.. I was saying.. damn, that was brilliant of Dean or whoe ver
<FreeTrade> You want to talk about cronyism ? How about Nepotism ?
<Lupine> hans: if the team looses money on the guy, they'll drop him
<FreeTrade> Sending your husband with the mission to discredit the white house.
<FreeTrade> Thats bull****.
<hans_kung> Letting CEOS walk away from their little messes with big bonuses and nice pensions.
<hans_kung> Like, the guy who ran the NYSE
<hans_kung> he walked away with MILLIONS upon MILLIONs
<West`> oh man, now you guys are going overboard
<FreeTrade> I predict only 1 of the 2 if either will be indicted
<FreeTrade> Libby
<jhicks> Volvo paid off Saddam
<West`> he was a US amb***ador, he wasnt just some chicks husband.
<jhicks> bwahaha
<Lupine> Exxon sets two records: first 10 billion/quarter profit first 100billion/quarter revenue
<West`> the claims were already debunked by the cia, dia and others. He was sent and reported what he found.
<Brak55> The bills are all due and the baby needs shoes and I'm busted...
<FreeTrade> Amb***adors usually are not CIA, people who work in emb***ies usually include some CIA, but not the actual amb***ador
<West`> his article wrote long after he returned and after the invasion.
<FreeTrade> So where was his experience ?
<jhicks> Iraq
<DarthBurg> yes, oil revenues have been lovely (Kisses his royalty check) what? don't YOU own oil wells?
<FreeTrade> And besides it was proved I believe that He had sought this yellow cake from niger.
<TimothyW> Former Amb***ador Joseph Wilson was a partyier
<jhicks> TimothyW: so was GeeDubya
<West`> I havent seen it 'proved' anywhere.
<DeDannan> George the First once hailed Wilson as "an American hero"...
<jhicks> TimothyW: partying is good
<jhicks> DeDannan: yes
<West`> Ive seen only the opposite, but I guess im one of the few that actually fully reads stuff. How many actually read the entire 9/11 commision report?
<hans_kung> TS Beta. geez.
<DeDannan> #2 man in Baghdad in the run up to Gulf War One..
<FreeTrade> Like myself making one mistake once being an idiot and whispering a secret in someones ear which came back to bite me, and teach me a lesson. I would not be surprised if wilson bragged about her job occasionally amongst highly trusted people.
<Lupine> wow.. a jury rules that the NY/NJ port authority negligent in the World Trade Center attack! what the ****???
<jhicks> Lupine: the first attack
<Null_Ptr> 93
<jhicks> 93
<Lupine> jh: yea.. that's ****ed up
<TimothyW> jhicks : President George W. Bush didn't use a US Emb***y in Iraq to party before Desert Storm did he ?
<DarthBurg> The british still stand behind their evidence. of course, you would not know it with all the revision going on in the media.
<jhicks> Lupine: new york basically ****s
<West`> FreeTrade maybe he did, that doesnt give someone the right to start talking about her to several reporters
<jhicks> TimothyW: he didn't have the keys
<TimothyW> jhicks : blah
<FreeTrade> All the reporters say they brought the name to the whitehouse.
<Brak55> Timothy: Nah, for desert storm he was in some alley in Dallas.
<jhicks> hehe
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