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<West`> ice picks up a lot of asian imigrants.
<qpl> more peeople being born, population increasing, wars, etc.. good variables for terror
<qpl> not to mention hardships, those in the poorest desperate areas
<FreeTrade> I think terror is losing its central authority which is neccesary but presents new challenges.
<qpl> easy pickings for 'terror' groups
<jhicks> FreeTrade: I don't really think it was ever that centralised was it?
<qpl> jv, probably couldnt carry the koran and the plutonium at the same time
<FreeTrade> You dont want a cental well organized intelligence agency, smaller factional ones are less likely to have as much resources or weapons, and they are easier to catch through local intelligence.
<FreeTrade> Jhicks, 10k or more of them went through Usamas training camps.
<Katey> I don't think terror had any central authority
<FreeTrade> so there was a huge centralized organization before the wars.
<jhicks> FreeTrade: yeah but very few really acted on their training except in Afghanistan
<FreeTrade> Maybe 100,000, I am not sure what the total is.
<qpl> terror does have a central authority - god
<West`> but they can, and that was the problem, we have disrputed most communication.
<Katey> Going through training camps doesn't really mean they were part of a centrally controlled organization
<jhicks> It's just that the few that did act did horrible things
<Katey> Most descriptions I've heard describle "Al Quaeda" as more of a network than an organized centrally controlled group
<jhicks> And I don't know how much their training really contributed to what they did
<West`> taken a lot of people out, forced them to change their plan and get the ones that wanted to fight, to fight into iraq.
<FreeTrade> Jhicks, we had regular attacks on us about 2 years apart since 1993, We have none since 2001. Except in the middle east.
<West`> not all of course, but those motivated to do so.
<jhicks> FreeTrade: I'm afraid terrorism is here to stay though
<qpl> networks are orginized, thats how they become networks
<Katey> not necessarily
<jhicks> Katey: there will always be a loose cannon here or there
<qpl> terror isnt goin anywhere but worse
<Katey> A network of people can be nothing more than a loose ***ociation of people with similar goals
<FreeTrade> Its really important if you can get a country to have a sensible democratic government, it helps to moderate extremists, they will want to be involved in world trade, they will want to help their economy grow. Others will have political aspirations and it will be infectious over the very long term.
<FreeTrade> I speak of Iraq of course.
<jhicks> FreeTrade: Kurdistan :)
<jhicks> it's gonna split up
<jhicks> which might not be so bad
<Katey> jhicks, hope not. Turkey will **** a brick
<FreeTrade> Think of all the Arabs who came to america seeking liberal practice of their religion ?
<jhicks> true
<qpl> freetrade, you got one thing right, a democratic government in islam is definitely viewed as an infection
<FreeTrade> In the UK unfortunately a lot of them came there with ill intent because it was easy to get there.
<jhicks> Katey: remember how we almost gave Turkey $40B for unnecessary easement into Iraq?
<FreeTrade> Our muslim population in the USA is much less connected to the jihad movement than european arabs.
<Katey> jhicks, I lost track of all the payolla. :)
<qpl> thats because most of our moslems are african americans
<jhicks> Katey: It's like they wanna see how broke they can make us :(
<FreeTrade> infectious not an infection, IF democracy continues to advance people will moderate ome.
<FreeTrade> their will be moderating forces acting on the people.
<Katey> We have a large population Arab Muslims up in Michigan
<jhicks> FreeTrade: Unless the majority chooses fundamentalism
<FreeTrade> Turkey is a great example of a muslim democracy
<jhicks> Turkey is a bunghole though
<Katey> Well, Democracy isn't always successful in and of itself
<FreeTrade> If the majority chooses fundamentalis you are right, Iraq hasnt had that kind of history really... not the wahhabi style islam.
<jhicks> It takes an educated populace as well
<FreeTrade> They are used to secular govt too.
<Katey> I think there needs to be a strong philosophical commitment to principles of individual liberty in order for it to avoid becomming mob rule
<FreeTrade> It probably would of worked anywhere else in the middle east except maybe ironically in the non arab state of Iran.
<Katey> and filled with corruption
<DeDannan> hmmm..somehow a nation who's military can void elections doesn't strike me as terribly "democratic"...
<FreeTrade> The people in Iran want western style democracy by all reports.
<jhicks> DeDannan: heretic! :)
<FreeTrade> But the government is hardline.
<FreeTrade> Ded, Who ?
<jhicks> FreeTrade: they went nationalistic
<Katey> Which is why I still remain very skeptical about this effort
<DeDannan> FT, Turkey
<FreeTrade> Thats not the case in Turkey.
<FreeTrade> No
<FreeTrade> Todat ?
<Katey> I think such a major change needs to bubble up from within in order to have much chance of success
<FreeTrade> Er today in this era ?
<FreeTrade> No
<jhicks> Fretless is back!
<FreeTrade> We woudlnt consider thems uch allies if that were the case
<qpl> thats because turkey is mostly sunni
<jhicks> Turks are interesting
<qpl> and they are 80% turk
<qpl> they are turkish moslems, not arab moslems
<jhicks> Iran isn't arab either
<vasili0s> oh that's right, the 20million kurds got swalloed up by a black hole
<vasili0s> such a shame
<Katey> I think that it's unfortunate that we haven't been able to encourage Turkey to take a stronger leadership role in attempting to spread a doctrine of political reform in Muslim countries
<FreeTrade> I want you to show me a contested turkish election in the last 15 years which was challenged by the UN as illigitimate.
<jhicks> Katey: they're pretty much a police state aren't they?
<FreeTrade> If I am wrong I want to know it.
<Katey> Turkey has done pretty well
<Katey> jhicks, nope
<jhicks> hmmm
<Katey> They're not as "free" as we are
<qpl> so if you want democracy to succeed in iraq, give more power to the sunni's
<jhicks> My buddy lived there for a couple of years and hated it
<FreeTrade> If I am right and they are not, Explain why europe would even consider them for EU membership and why America would push for them to have a stronger role in the world.
<Katey> But they're the most successful developing democracy in the Muslim world, last time I checked
<jhicks> He said they disappear people all the time
<FreeTrade> Katey, Israel is a jewish democracy
<vasili0s> pretty damn well. they continue to illegally occupy 35% of EU member Cyprus, god knows what happens in their prisons, they illegally invade Greek air space daily, and consider the Kurds, turkish mountain dwellers
<vasili0s> right...............
<FreeTrade> Turkey is a islam democracy
<qpl> oh wait, thats what saddam did, never mind
<Katey> FreeTrade, yes. I know
<FreeTrade> And so will Iraw be
<FreeTrade> Its too tied into thier culture to not be
<qpl> when iraq was peacefull and secure like turkey, the sunnis ruled, just like they do in turkey
<qpl> go figure
<DeDannan> Under the military's constitutional mandate to protect Turkey's secularism and territorial integrity -- two key principles of the republic's founder, Mustafa Kemal Ataturk -- the military has weighed in on numerous matters that normally would not be considered relevant to national defense.
<DeDannan> It has demanded that head scarves, which many Muslim women believe Islam requires them to wear, not be worn in government buildings or on college campuses. It has advocated flying the Turkish flag over mosques. It has approved language courses in public schools, disapproved of Kurdish radio and TV broadcasts, urged book bannings in university libraries and promoted programs to lower Kurdish population growth, among other measures --
<FreeTrade> law for christians is not from the bible as much as it is for jews and muslims.
<DeDannan> http://www.library.cornell.edu/colldev/mideast/turkarm.htm
<jhicks> I think Istanbul is a lot different than Anatolia too
<qpl> could be because the shiites are the radicals and those are the majority there in iraq
<qpl> and now look whos getting the power there
<qpl> go figure
<FreeTrade> Jesus even said, law was for the weak, the strong done need laws because they do whats right from having a character
<jhicks> Where the former is civilized and the latter is barbaric
<qpl> freetrade, jesus never said that
<FreeTrade> But of course Jesus notwithstanding we do need laws but we can have secular laws with no problem
<FreeTrade> in fact our experience with religious law was bad for us European descendents
<qpl> apparently you dont know anything about the pilgrims
<jhicks> FreeTrade: and bad for a few witches in Salem too
<FreeTrade> Which is why most of europe and America and other european break away states like austrailia are all secular.
<FreeTrade> Part of why
<FreeTrade> jhicks, true but you want some interesting trivia ?
<jhicks> sure
<FreeTrade> There was never one witch killed in Salem m***.
<qpl> or the foundation of which this country was established
<jhicks> hrm
<FreeTrade> Thats all mythology
<jhicks> no ****?
<qpl> they were burned
<FreeTrade> Check it out on the web.
<FreeTrade> Yep
<FreeTrade> No they werent
<jhicks> no drownings?
<FreeTrade> Or the library
<CometBaby> Well the lestists are pretty disappointed today .. here they thought that the indictments were going to come down .. and instead .. miers drops out
<jhicks> no beatings?
<FreeTrade> There was punishments no doubr
<jhicks> damn, i'm disappointed
<FreeTrade> water logging etc.
<vasili0s> FreeTrade : turkey gets pushed for having democratic institutions that are never used (ie: being "american buddies"), and for having one hell of a locale in the middle east and other fruits to pick.
<qpl> apparently you have never been to m***achusets
<FreeTrade> there were no burnings
<CometBaby> no tv cameras for them today
<qpl> you know, where our country was founded?
<FreeTrade> and it wasnt just witches either..
<mmealling> is there a channel where I can find liberal/Democrat minded folks? #democrat seems eerily quiet.... I would like to ask some folks about what a Democratic presidency in 2008 might look like.
<FreeTrade> it was other criminals too.
<jhicks> The French burned that soldier chick
<FreeTrade> Joan of ark ?
<jhicks> Arc :)
<jhicks> She was kinda nutty though
<Katey> FreeTrade, are you saying there were no "witches" executed or are you saying that none of those executions were actually burnings?
<FreeTrade> Its a shame witchcraft was ever considered evil or criminal, but primitive minds prevailed at the time.
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