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<HiPPiEklR> ya
<L0c0> roygbiv: i agree. the "facts" changed
<roygbiv> So what it is, did you go to uphold the UN or in spite of the UN?
<roygbiv> it is = is it
<Kaliuna> roy -- and why did the UN say no -- oil/food scandals
<trompe> roygibv: your argument is that not one of those 175 editors made any unique observations about the situation or the issues involved... that is a wild and baseless ***ertion. Since you like to label my point of view "undefendable", perhaps you would like to defend this ***ertion? Did you personally read all 175 editorials?
<Timur> roy: they made the resolutions but then refused to back them with actual force by authorizing the US
<namo_> hello
<bud``> roygbiv any member of the origianl iraq war could unilaterally RESUME hostilities in Iraq if ANY resolution or cease fire agreement was violated.
<namo_> can someone help me answer something?
<Timur> hi namo
<roygbiv> The UN bureacracy is seperate from the countries that voted for UN resolutions. The oil for food scandals are cast over a wide net and include countries like Australia which supported the war.
<trompe> hello namo_
<Kaliuna> namo-- you might get an answer -- if you ask your question
<namo_> is bush really living up to his pledge to bring 'honor and integrity' to the white house?
<Kaliuna> yes
<bud``> yes
<echoghost> that depends on who you ask, I say yes.
<namo_> oh ok, thanks
<Timur> not imo
<roygbiv> bud, if that was the case, why didn't the UN approve this war and why was it ignored by the US and UK?
<roygbiv> And derided?
<bud``> bush as an individual, yes, bush administration, no
<HiPPiEklR> I'm surprised France didn't ask for the statue of liberty back when America renamed French Fries as Freedom fries when they fell out over the attack of Iraq
<namo_> I think I tend to take timur's point of view
<HiPPiEklR> :)
<bud``> roygbiv because the UN has come out of the washer cycle and is just as dirty as the regimes its supposed to punish
<JanetB> I wish they would ask for it back!!
<namo_> bud, it doesn't seem likely that bush is totally innocent in all this, does it?
<Timur> however, you might disagree with me in other ways, since I did and do support the Iraq war
<Timur> just a guess. :)
<roygbiv> I can't believe the gaul of people who try to justify this war as protecting a UN resolution when the US criticised the UN and ignored it in the lead up to this war.
<bud``> namo_ i coulod say yes and be speculating, i could say no and be speculating.. good enough answer?
<HiPPiEklR> yeah, but Dubya would have a big gold statue of himself put there instead, Nero style
<Timur> roy: try many resolutions
<redfish> roygbiv gimme platypus
<trompe> namo_: well there are two separate questions: (1) Does Bush believe that he acts with honor and integrity? (2) Does Bush actually act with honor and integrity? I think the answer to the first question is yes, but the answer to the second requires a lot more information than is available at the present.
<Timur> but you don't get geopolitics anyway, so nm.
<roygbiv> hehe redfish
<Hangfire> hmmm is yaakov still around?
<weezyl> Trompe - well said.
<roygbiv> bud, yep, the UN has a lot of dirty laundry. What the heck would you expect? Every country has corruption and the UN is composed of every country.
<roygbiv> But it's the best we have and it served its purpose of preventing any world wars for the last 60 years.
<namo_> trompe, I see
<roygbiv> It would have continued that role of upholding the peace if the US and UK hadn't undermined international law to wage this pre-emptive b/s war.
<HiPPiEklR> you don't think this war is a world war ?
<bud``> roygbiv yeah and avoiding lots o stuff it should have prevented
<JanetB> international law?
<namo_> roy, I agree with that, seems like anyone in the US who says we should shut down the UN didn't read where and how the UN was created
<roygbiv> Hippie, it's not a world war, but the very nature of this war has undermined international law.
<Timur> international law? :D
<Timur> yeah.
<Timur> it's not about 'international law'
<Timur> it's about imposing force where and when it's needed
<L0c0> I dont' think anybody argues the fact that Saddam was scum
<L0c0> and bad to his people
<trompe> weezyl: I think all of the accusations of "Bush lied!", "Clinton lied!", "Blair lied!" (etc) are based on an unrealistic ***umption that they had access to all available information, which isn't the case; government is a complicated business, and people make mistakes, but accusing everyone of having a secret agenda is a little reckless
<Timur> that's the basis of geopolitics.
<roygbiv> What reason do other countries now have to respect international law when the leader can bend the rules if it wants?
<HiPPiEklR> it's all a bit 1984, if you ask me.. (the book, not the era)
<L0c0> but there are MANY governments that are bad to their people
<bud``> roygbiv good god man, read some international laws, treaties, agreements, ceasefires, then come back and tell me the SERIOUSLY BAD guys arent getting dealt the ace of spades under the UN
<Timur> roy: because those countries respecting it tend to have earned and deserve respect, and Iraq clearly didn't.
<JanetB> the UN.. does not govern the USA :)
<JanetB> thank GOD
<HiPPiEklR> the scary ones are the ones you don't know about
<L0c0> hell, our OWN supreme court ruled that an american citizen can be held without being charged (Padilla case). to me that's scary. granted padilla may be guilty as sin, but w/o charges, how can he be detained
<roygbiv> bud, was the world annihilated by a US/USSR nuclear war? No, therefore the UN served a tremendous purpose.
<L0c0> i mean that boggles my mind
<Timur> because letting him go would be scarier, unless you think dirty bombs going off in US cities is ok.
<L0c0> i don't think Saddam was the threat that the administration made him out to be either to us or to Iraq's neighbors
<HiPPiEklR> the USA doesn't govern the world.. thank god
<|Glitch|> Greetings.
<Timur> Hippie: yeah, and look how well it's doing
<roygbiv> Hippie, it sure is trying to.
<JanetB> nor do we want to
<Timur> the world, that is
<trompe> "[12:03] <roygbiv> bud, was the world annihilated by a US/USSR nuclear war? No, therefore the UN served a tremendous purpose." That's a staggering logical leap.
<L0c0> i think radical muslims live on a plane of existance completely disconnected from ours
<HiPPiEklR> roy: so true :(
<roygbiv> trompe, it's not a logical leap at all. The UN was designed to do exactly that.
<L0c0> and our mere presence in the region is enough justification for them to be pissed off
<bud``> oh so the UN just gets a 'free corruption' p***
<bud``> riight
<Timur> l0c0: agree
<L0c0> they us the US as an enemy... we see them as an enemy....would we stand for them to occupy a part of america?
<roygbiv> Provide a forum for all of the world powers that would prevent the miscommunications which can lead to major hostilities.
<trompe> roygibv: have you considered that mutually ***ured destruction is also a disincentive to wage nuclear war? or that anything other than the UN was responsible for the absence of a US/USSR nuclear war?
<|Glitch|> trompe: Indeed, considering the UN had nothing to do with the cold war.
<L0c0> they see us
<Timur> L0c0: no, they choose to believe that
<CryArvach> L0c0..I think TimothyT can interface with that plane
<Timur> they do have a choice, like any person or group
<L0c0> hehe
<CryArvach> ooooo eeeeeeeeeeee oooooooo ooooooooooooooo!!
<L0c0> ****, if i could get a crack at the virgins and paradise, i'd wanna interface too LOL
<Timur> a forum is only useful if the participants actually have the intent and means to avoid hostilities.
<CryArvach> L0c0.. I think its 72 De-virginizing tools...
<L0c0> lucky for me though, i have a tad bit of reason, rationality and logic in my pea-sized brain
<CryArvach> even now...Y***er is being tended to by those he killed
<rond> Timur ever read krauthammers piece on democratic realism ?
<L0c0> cryarvach: what they're not told is that the virgins are UGLY...that's how they managed to remain "pure"
<roygbiv> Timur, the only way to avoid war is through talking and negotiation. The UN provided a place where the world powers could talk.
<L0c0> lol
<Timur> roy: talking and negotiation are only relevant if the parties who would talk and negotiate actually have the intent and means to avoid conflict.
<L0c0> and in paradise, there are no burqas :-P ?sp?
<CryArvach> L0c0..I like to think it is 72 human bomb victims with broomsticks...billy clubs..big pieces of pvc...etc
<dakotah> hi guys, i just want to say that libby is like one of the founding fathers... he didn't have to serve our country but he'll give up everything to do his best
<weezyl> *laugh*
<weezyl> let the martyrdom begin!
<CryArvach> its d-weezyl :)
<L0c0> Did you guys hear Bush's speech today?
<weezyl> wr0d.
<roygbiv> Timur, even if the talks fail and war ensues, a forum still allows for the possibility of ending hostilities at any time. No communication means perpetual hostility.
<Timur> L0c0: correct, burqas
<namo_> l0c0, the front lawn one?
<CryArvach> oh oh Y***er......one victime has a power drill...hrmm didnt know they had 24" drill bits...
<TimothyW-> President George W. Bush has been blessed by Allah, we Republican Liberators will be able to defend this nation from the Democratic Infidels who are our Enemies and destroyers of our way of Life.
<L0c0> 2 things i heard (that he's repeated before and did again today) that made me chuckle: 1) on bin laden telling ppl to carry out his bidding, but not joining them in the fight...
<roygbiv> L0c0, was it "Screw this president thing, I nominate myself to the supreme court" ?
<roygbiv> :)
<L0c0> we don't see Laura, Jenna, George P or any other Bush's out there
<CryArvach> TimothyT Allah want to do is make Islam grow up
<HiPPiEklR> Alex Jones for president :)
<L0c0> but that's minor
<L0c0> that is more joking
<CryArvach> hey.. a knock knock joke!!!
<L0c0> the other was when he said that Bin Laden/AlQueda/radical muslims despise dissenters
<Timur> roy: for the possibility, yes, but the possibility will only be realized with real means and intent by both parties.
<CryArvach> Knock Knock?!
<L0c0> which i think is ironic considering the scope and possible intent of this Wilson/Plame case
<L0c0> Glitch: LOL.... .3? i'd hate to imagine which 30% that is
<JanetB> what wilson/plame case.. there is no wilson/plame case :)
<L0c0> elbows, knees and ankles
<L0c0> ahha
<Timur> hi CA
<TimothyW-> There is no Mullah Mohammed Abu Abbas
<CryArvach> hey Timur...
<CryArvach> kncok knock
<bud``> the wilson/plame case was pretty much unwrapped for what it is..
<roygbiv> Timur, yes, but before any sort of intent you need a forum. Otherwise you have intent and no means of conveying it.
<bud``> nothing
<namo_> why don't presidents fight the war?
<JanetB> nothing
<bud``> she outed herself
<bud``> and wasnt even covert
<HiPPiEklR> namo_> cos he's a chicken
<CryArvach> Bush could trebuchet TK onto the field
<HiPPiEklR> and rich, so therefore doesn't have to
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