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<Timur> NYC is not Montana
<OcDoc> Timur: my rights should not depend on what level of government is repressing me
<Timur> they have different local laws reflecting different conditions
<rond> and I am glad beause I don't want you building just anything anywhere next to my mansion
<Timur> well, that's a nice theory, but conditions make local laws different
<pilgrim`> my rights depend entirely on how well lubricated I have made the pockets of those who would disturb my rights
<Timur> they do?
<rond> those local laws protect me from you and any wild ideas you might have OC
<pilgrim`> justice is equal to my financial capability. simple math
<Timur> I haven't paid anyone a darn thing
<Timur> other than taxes
<Lupine> OcDoc: Yes, it is not right that many state and local govn't can ignore the constitution/bill of rights :-/
<Timur> good thing common sense isn't mandated in said documents
<Lupine> timur: unfortuantely, the govn't thinks that taxes is something you "owe".. so it buys you no influence :(
<Timur> sure it does
<OcDoc> Lupine: but the whole government does similar things to remove my rights
<deidara> taxes ****
<Timur> it buys me the same influence as any law abiding taxpaying citizen
<OcDoc> Timur: none of those local conditions ever justifies eliminating my rights as a citizen
<Timur> which rights?
<Lupine> OcDoc: yep. I also have a philosophy on taxes. They can call it what ever they want "surcharge" "fee" etc.. it's all a "tax" to me.
<pilgrim`> death and taxes
<Timur> so like
<Timur> if I move to NYC
<pilgrim`> taxation is theft.
<Timur> and all the land is already owned
<Timur> and I want to build in say Central Park
<Lupine> well, if it required a constitutoinal amendment for prohibition.. how come local counties can ban alchohol? :-/
<OcDoc> Timur: spurious argument
<Timur> that's a violation of my constitutional rights/
<Timur> well, I'm looking for a valid one
<pilgrim`> there is no other equation that has consistently worked since the neolithic: taxation always equals theft
<OcDoc> that has nothing to do with what I do with my personal private property
<strider_> i wouldn't build anything near central park
<Timur> sure
<Rockfish> Lupine, 9th and 10th amendments, state govts can do things that the federal govt can't without an amendment
<pilgrim`> mmany people labor under a false premise that taxation and government services bear some relationship. They do not
<rond> it keeps me from moving in next to you OC and digging an oil well
<Timur> because if your personal property has the effect of lowering the real estate aroudn you, through, say, neglect, that's a case of where your rights end and others' begin
<rond> you know how us texans are about oil wells
<pilgrim`> round dry?
<rond> we really like em even if there right next to you
<OcDoc> rond: there's no oil here, but if there were, why would I have a right to prevent you from drilling an oil well?
<P5YCH0> mr sulu are u going to the final frontier
<rond> Not under your rules no
<OcDoc> rond: if you damage me by drilling one, we have to settle in court over the damages
<pilgrim`> there are pumps in down Twon LA
<pilgrim`> and DT OK City
<Timur> depends on how it affects your neighbors
<Lupine> Rock: the thing is, the founding fathers were stupid to not put into writing "local and state govn'ts also must fully respect the bill of rights" :-/
<P5YCH0> the founding fathers wore wigs
<P5YCH0> and like to have incest
<Rockfish> Lupine, banning alcohol does not violate the bill of rights
<tehdave> thanks for that insight, p5ych0.
<OcDoc> Timur: if you damage me, we can settle it in court or out of court ... that's different from making a law against drilling an oil well
<P5YCH0> insight
<P5YCH0> try truth
<P5YCH0> before u even talk
<pilgrim`> Lupine if the 1st 5 words of the bill of rights had been the sumation of all things we would be soooooooo better off
<Rockfish> Lupine, probably
<rond> Oh I will be carfeful about not damaging anything on your property
<P5YCH0> your gonna break his mobile home
<P5YCH0> >=\
<tehdave> i didn't say it wasn't a truth. i just don't think it had any relevence to this conversation.
<strider_> yeehaw
<rond> but without any code there is not much you can do about my druilling noise
<OcDoc> rond: then I will prosper if you find oil and bring it out for us all to use
<Timur> Oc: depends if the very drilling of said well would in and of itself have some sort of impact on your neighbors, and if so to what extent
<P5YCH0> founding fathers somebody said the founding fathers back in the days
<P5YCH0> and im pointing out there were crack pots as well
<OcDoc> rond: they're building houses across the street from me now and making a lot of racket ... and it's all to code
<pilgrim`> Jed clampett was gonna GIVE that city slicker his swamp
<rond> and there won't be anything you can do about my noisy oil well that runs all day and nite
<rond> just clanking away
<rond> I build with cheap pumpers
<OcDoc> Timur: then they have to compensate me for my damages, that still doesn't justify a law preventing the drilling of wells
<pilgrim`> rond I WOULD FIND MY SOLUTION IN SWEDEN
<Timur> nope, not really
<pilgrim`> OOPS
<P5YCH0> i dont see wats wrong with drilling
<pilgrim`> Sweden Alfred Nobel. that is....dynomite it
<Timur> you don't get to disturb your neighbors for personal gain
<P5YCH0> I DO it all the time ~_^
<Timur> ***uming that would be an issue
<P5YCH0> disturb my neighbors
<OcDoc> rond: you STILL have to answer to me in court ... the court can stop your noise if it is damaging me
<P5YCH0> o yea because i dont want to piss of people who dont really care about me
<P5YCH0> brilliant
<rond> yeah we will see about that huh
<rond> :)
<pilgrim`> OcDoc a 30 30 would be quicker and costs less then a lawyer. more sure aim too
<P5YCH0> drill a big on use dynamite
<Timur> and given the likelihood of pollution, runoff, and noise
<Timur> it alsmost certainly would
<OcDoc> rond: you're deliberately missing my point ... so be it
<P5YCH0> theres poultion everywhere
<rond> No really
<Timur> yeah well the idea is not to make more of it
<Timur> duh
<P5YCH0> u want to stop poultion go protest to companys
<Timur> people do
<P5YCH0> well you are makin more duh
<rond> without city codes in the first place its your lawyer against mine
<OcDoc> rond: one day you will run afoul of the rules and it will be too late for you to claim it's your right to do what you were doing
<P5YCH0> right now wastin our electricity
<P5YCH0> more is being made duh
<P5YCH0> and will be stop tryin to pretend your good
<rond> and if I am making money from my oil well I bet I have a better lawyer than yours
<P5YCH0> >=)
<P5YCH0> cockran
<Rockfish> If the oil done spit, you must acquit
<pilgrim`> rond has a point.
<Timur> Oc: so your #1 example of how America has become a country without rights is your lack of ability to drill an oil well on your property?
<pilgrim`> you can win by out spending
<P5YCH0> wat do u mean lawyer
<P5YCH0> if you were makin more money then him
<P5YCH0> u would have lawyers
<P5YCH0> >=)
<P5YCH0> not 1
<Timur> pilg: not if the case is entirely without merit
<rond> actually the oil well example is being fought right now in fort worth with all the new gas wells going up
<P5YCH0> well america is about money
<pilgrim`> Timur if I won the judge, own the oposition atorney own the wintesses, the city clerk and the filing clerk...does it matter?
<pilgrim`> won-own
<P5YCH0> rich get richer poor get poorer
<pilgrim`> money talks
<P5YCH0> exact;y
<rond> without proper city codes that is what happens, lawyers against lawyers
<P5YCH0> bull**** walks
<rond> so my example is pertinant
<pilgrim`> codes mean one thing: You are not allowed to do X untill X is deemed of some value to a developer who can make money doing X but then HE can do X and you STILL cannot do X. THAT is how code works
<trapezoid> hola
<rond> codes at least give you a starting point without codes its everyman for himself
<pilgrim`> that is why "easements" variances" and other weasel words apear in the code
<pilgrim`> rond reasonable
<Timur> pilg: sure, because you can't own every appellate court
<pilgrim`> then I at least knwow hich way to shoot
<rond> and believe me I hate codes :)
<pilgrim`> Timur think back 20 years; IBM did ;)
<rond> espeically the one that says any building that cast a shadow is one that is regulated in some way
<pilgrim`> build in Seattle ;)
<rond> its not a matter of size its a matter of a shadow
<trapezoid> codes differ in every municipality
<rond> thats fort worths code
<trapezoid> find one that you like
<Timur> pilg; what case
<P5YCH0> screw the codes start drilling
<L0c0> lol
<P5YCH0> >=)
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