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<rond> it will take 100 days to rebuild
<trapezoid> seriously
<Katey> Timur, do they charge you a toll every time you turn a corner?
<Katey> :)
<trapezoid> i prefer that government builds interconnecting roadways
<trapezoid> so anyone can use them
<Rockfish> Alito has the Scalia-esque nickname "Little Nino" and the Italian background to match it. As the author of a widely noted dissent urging his court to uphold restrictions on abortion that the Supreme Court then struck down, in a decision that reaffirmed Roe v. Wade, Alito could be especially filibuster-prone. Like Scalia, he frequently makes his mark in dissent.
<trapezoid> that is my opinion
<trapezoid> he has his own
<trapezoid> but that is ok
<OcDoc> Timur: glad to hear it
<Lupine> trape: 441 goes by many names. On this map, it is labled State Road 7
<Gazpacho> Lupine: 441 what???
<OcDoc> trapezoid: sometimes it makes sense to have public roads
<trapezoid> lupine: also, how do i know what is "out" and what is "powered"?
<OcDoc> trapezoid: but that is not a valid argument to give government a monopoly on all roads
<Lupine> Gaz: talking about power-outages form wilma
<Gazpacho> trapezoid: why can't roads be like utilities
<Lupine> trap: all those red dots mean power-outage
<Timur> Katey: yes, well heeled housewives in jogging suits with M16s make sure every corner has its toll paid
<Gazpacho> Lupine: but WHAT IS 441????
<Timur> it's a beautiful town
<Lupine> gaz: it's a road :P
<OcDoc> GAzpacho: they ARE like utilities
<Gazpacho> federal? state? national forest?
<Gazpacho> OcDoc: they're not owned and operated by private companies
<trapezoid> lupine i see SR27
<US`Male> state rd
<trapezoid> SR74
<OcDoc> Timur: everywhere I've ever used a toll road you pay with an electronic gadget
<Katey> I think people forget that, even if THEY personally don't use this or that road, or they only drive X percent of their day or whatever, everything we use and buy is shipped on our roads
<trapezoid> but i am looking on ther glades map
<Katey> our economy is dependant on good roads
<trapezoid> she lives on 441 right off glades
<OcDoc> Katey: my system would give you better roads cheaper
<Timur> Oc: the ones aroudn here have both cash and EZP*** booths
<trapezoid> SR80
<Katey> OcDoc, what system?
<trapezoid> SR29
<OcDoc> Timur: yup
<trapezoid> any idea?
<OcDoc> Katey: privatized
<Gazpacho> there must be at least one long-distance private road in the US
<Katey> OcDoc, I need more details
<Katey> OcDoc, how is it cheaper?
<Gazpacho> in montana somewhere
<trapezoid> gazpacho: could be ibut i seriously doubt it
<OcDoc> Katey: the government wastes money on non-road expenses that would be reduced by private operators
<trapezoid> unless you call state "toll roads" "private"
<OcDoc> Gazpacho: the Will Rogers Toll Road in Oklahoma
<Katey> OcDoc, how can private operators be compelled to adhere to any sort of standards with regard to upkeep?
<rond> geeehs I was only kidding when I brought up the road deal
<Katey> or tolls?
<Lupine> trap: Okay.. Palm Beach map http://fpl.com/storm/pdf/wilma_palmbeach.pdf
<Gazpacho> OcDoc: isn't that route 66?
<Katey> Sounds like a complicated mess to me
<rond> I did not mean to change the topic from city codes
<OcDoc> trapezoid: they don't have to be owned and operated by the state, do they?
<OcDoc> Katey: and what we have now isn't a complicated mess?
<Lupine> Trap: 441 is labled "range Line Road" on that map
<Gazpacho> OcDoc: I mean, wasn't it?
<Katey> OcDoc, not as bad as what you're suggesting
<OcDoc> Katey: rush hour traffic in Houston and Seattle are complicated messes
<Katey> OcDoc, I drive all over the place and rarely pay a toll
<trapezoid> ocdoc: when you consider that most consumer goods travel on public roads, how would people eat if the restaurants were not provisioned? speaking hypothetically, of course
<Katey> And the roads are generally p***able and in decent shape
<OcDoc> Katey: no, you pay more through gas taxes than you would with a toll
<DiscoTaco> What I wouldn't do for the relative calm of rush hour traffic in Seattle and Houston.
<Katey> OcDoc, How can you determine that?
<Lupine> Trape: So, on the palmbeach map.. it is lower-right side.. glades road is the 2nd east-west road on that map
<Katey> OcDoc, do you propose some sort of cap for tolls?
<OcDoc> Katey: once you pay a toll, you KNOW what the money will go towards ... when you pay the gas tax, do you honestly think you know what it's going to?
<DiscoTaco> On average my 5 mile commute takes 25 minutes. Half an hour or more on Fridays. ANd I live *50 miles out in the suburbs*
<Gazpacho> I propose some kind of cap for trolls
<Gazpacho> so we can identify them
<Lupine> ocdoc: well, that's not true.. at least not for the florida turnpike toll :(
<Katey> OcDoc, no, you don't know what the money goes toward
<OcDoc> Lupine: is it a state toll road?
<Katey> You pay a toll and have no clue what the money would go toward in a privatized system
<Lupine> ocdoc: it isn't a special fund for the turnpike only. all money once the toll collectors are paid, go to the general state road fund
<OcDoc> Lupine: then it's not a private toll road
<Lupine> ocdoc: yep, state toll road.. but it wont necessarily go to that road
<DiscoTaco> Well the reality is all government revenues are basically a giant slush fund. Earmarks are basically accounting fictions.
<rond> in my life time I have only seen one toll road goaway saying...this thing is paid for now
<Lupine> OcDOc: Oh.. sorry, didn't see that :-)
<trapezoid> lupine ok, now, any idea where 441 is?
<Lupine> OcDoc: the "sawgr*** expressway" started like that. But once it was paid off, the govn't moved in and took it over.
<OcDoc> Lupine: yup
<Lupine> Trape: 441 is also SR7, and also Range Line Road
<trapezoid> btw. palmetto and glades met about 3 miles past 441
<OcDoc> everythint they touch goes downhill
<DiscoTaco> Actually in a privatized system you *do* know where the money would go toward: back into the actual ***et rather than disappearing into a giant government slush fund of patronage and waste.
<trapezoid> ok
<trapezoid> thanks
<OcDoc> DiscoTaco: yup
<Rockfish> Some lawyers call the judge "Scalito." ---- I like this guy
<Lupine> trape: its frustrating as that road has like a million names.. and they dont use at least one consistently :0/
<Katey> DiscoTaco, the money would go into some guy's pocket
<OcDoc> unless the operator is dishonest ... then the two things happen ... you stop using his road if he doesn't maintain it, or the laws of fraud go into effect
<Katey> DiscoTaco, there'd be nothing to force the owner to spend any particular amount of their revenue on their road and nothing to limit how much they would charge
<OcDoc> and frequently competition comes in and beats him
<Gazpacho> trapezoid: Dulles Greenway in VA
<trapezoid> lu[ine: looks ;ike her area is still out
<Lupine> Trape: I drove up the turnpike yesterday.. ( the blue double line road on the left.. the oen on the right is I-95 )... tons of destruction
<DiscoTaco> Katey: some of it would, yes. But that's why people operate private enterprises in the first place. And that person can be held accountable. Do you have any idea how many decades the state of Illinois has spent trying to clean up the corruption and waste in its tollway system? You can't fire an entire bureaucracy.
<OcDoc> Katey: when you buy a car, whose pocket does your money go into?
<Katey> DiscoTaco, well, having to spend govt. time and money holding negligent road owners accountable seems like a waste. Just let the govt. run the roads directly.
<Timur> answer: the fascist oppressive gubmint
<DiscoTaco> Katey: Sure there would: The marketplace will decide how much they charge.
<Lupine> OcDoc: last year was the FIRST year we could deduct the salestax of our new car [ woohoo! ]
<Katey> OcDoc, that's different. People use the roads they have to use to get where they're going. It's not like picking out paper towels.
<Gazpacho> Katey: yeah, that would be great, then one corrupt organization can screw up the whole system
<Lupine> katey: which will have negligent roads with no accountability
<Katey> DiscoTaco, nah. People have to get where they're going.
<Katey> Lupine, not as spotty as privately owned roads would
<OcDoc> Katey: it's not different, but never mind ... you have bought into the myth that the government is the only option for operating the roads, even though they frequently don't do it very well
<Katey> Generally, the roads are pretty decent, at least in my area
<Katey> OcDoc, yeah. it's different.
<Lupine> katey: well, given that I live on a privately owned road.. I'ld say it is the complete opposite of it.
<DiscoTaco> Yeah, government running the roads directly has worked magnificently. 55,000 road fatalities a year is hardly a scandal in an industry run by government. How many private industries get away with a death toll like that? And how about the extra 4 to 5 billion dollars a year motorists spend in automotive repairs that are directly related to the ****ty condition of our roadways?
<Lupine> katey: we are one of the *very few* areas that did not lose power/water/phone/internet during hurricane Wilma
<Katey> Lupine, and that's due to your road being privately owned?
<OcDoc> Katey: and in spite of the fact that the roads in my neighborhood are in good repair very inexpensively and they fall apart as soon as you get onto the county road right outside
<Lupine> katey: the only reason why I was knocked off IRC for ~30minutes is.. the main internet backbone for south florida went down.
<Gazpacho> DiscoTaco: last time I checked the government wasn't causing those deaths
<DiscoTaco> Katey: People have alternate means of getting where they're going, unless you believe a privateer can charge 2 million dollars for a toll fee and expect that no alternates are going to crop up.
<Gazpacho> DiscoTaco: don't defend good ideas with lame arguments
<Katey> DiscoTaco, there are limited routes to get where you need to go
<DiscoTaco> Gazpacho: Name me one single private industry that is allowed to tolerate that kind of negligence.
<OcDoc> Gazpacho: did Winchester cause the rifle deaths last year?
<Gazpacho> DiscoTaco: I reject the ***umption that it is negligence
<Lupine> Katey: everything here is privately paid for and done. Utilities, roads, you name it
<weezyl> Is the government responsible for each of those 55,000 deaths on roadways, though? That seems like bad reasoning to me.
<DiscoTaco> Katey: Maybe where you live. Around here there's a comprehensive grid system and there are literally close to an infinite number of ways to get from point A to point B. Some take longer. Some cost more (tolls). We have a choice. I bet you do too.
<Lupine> Katey: we also never get flooded here, which is a big deal in south florida
<Katey> lucifer_, all your roadways are privately owned?
<Katey> in the state of FL?
<Gazpacho> Lupine: here?
<Katey> er. Lupine I mean
<Lupine> gaz: I live in Weston, between Ft Lauderdale and Miami
<OcDoc> too bad ... illeagle is a cool nick
<Lupine> Katey: I was on IRC during a Cat3 hurricane, with a local max sustained wind of 104mph ( ground ).. and over 4 hours of sustained hurricane force winds ( except for eye ).
<Lupine> it don't get much better than this
<Katey> Lupine, the roads in FL are all privately owned?
<Gazpacho> Lupine: watch out for those speeding patrol aircraft!
<Katey> or in your county?
<Katey> what were you getting at?
<DiscoTaco> Gazpacho: Really? Who do you think hands out licenses like candy to idiots who can barely tie their shoes? Who's responsible for the ****ty engineering at the most accident-prone intersections? Who has no incentive whatsoever to improve either circumstance?
<OcDoc> well, somebody has to do something about it, even if it doesn't work!
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