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<Amante> A-KO|work: And frankly, if you disagree with what I say, that's one thing, but if you're saying I've "never stated why", then you're just plain ****ing deaf. Or blind, whatever.
<A-KO|work> Amante : You have said that rogues aren't useful in raiding, yet you haven't stated why they aren't useful in raiding.
<A-KO|work> Please, enlighten me!
<Amante> I'd say scroll up, but hell, why not
<djben> amag - you can easily mitigate mage damage. Use a spell that isnt in your tree and your DPS is crap
<Amante> Yes, they do good damage, that's not exactly the observation of the year
<Amante> Although their damage DID just get nerfed a good amount
<Amante> But yeah, they still do pretty good damage
<A-KO|work> Amante : dude
<A-KO|work> uuuh
<djben> ice mage, sure you can use fire. Low crit rate, no ignite to help your crits, no +10% damage from a talent
<Amante> What else do they really have, though?
<Amante> Combat control ****s
<A-KO|work> Amante : get a rogue with perdition's
<djben> but nobody resists ice in pvp yet
<Amante> No buffs
<Amante> Yes, trap disarming, whooptdy ****ing do
<Amante> In like, what, two places in the whole game?
<djben> amante hasnt seen 8/8 nightslayer with perdition + brutality blade i geuss.
<A-KO|work> djben : guess not
<djben> or perhaps 6/8 nightslayer and 2/8 bloodfang
<Amante> So your argument is, the cl*** is fine
<A-KO|work> we've got 3 rogues with that setup djben :(
<face-> buff paladins
<djben> with vis'kag and corhound tooth as offhand
<Amante> As long as they have an entire epic set
<djben> and all epic trinkets
<MuppetWar> rogues get stealth + highest dps
<djben> we have several of them
<Amante> And epic weapons
<djben> they gear up in 3 months
<djben> thats all it takes for a rogue
<djben> they dont even haev to bother getting blue gear in my guild
<djben> friend joined, went from crappy crappy blues -> full epic
<A-KO|work> Amante : You said that rogues got nerfed in damage. No, the nerf was to ambush and backstab on weapons > 1.7 speed. Meaning, daggers with a 1.6 speed actually got BUFFEd for main-hand dagger use
<Amante> Rogue isn't guaranteed highest DPS anymore. Can they get it? Sometimes. But other cl***es are enroaching on that territory now
<A-KO|work> I would hardly call that nerfed
<Amante> A-KO|work: That's how the change works IN THEORY.
<Amante> IE, that's how they said it'd work.
<Amante> Not necessarily how it DOES.
<A-KO|work> and that's how it works. Our rogues still dominate damage meters on PVE combat on boss fights.
<Amante> But hey, let's say they're still most damaging
<A-KO|work> Amante : What raiding experience do you have?
<Amante> Let's say . . . 10%? 15% more than other cl***es?
<Amante> Too much, too little? You consider yourself the expert
<Amante> You tell me
<A-KO|work> Amante : The problem with the damage output of rogues in boss fights is that it's doing 'too much'. Essentially, rogues can already do high amounts of damage, turn around mid-fight and drop ALL threat they have ever built on the mob
<A-KO|work> and then start from the bottom mid-fight
<A-KO|work> that's a HUGE damage potential in PVE
<A-KO|work> because at that point
<Amante> Heh
<A-KO|work> they could go "all out"
<A-KO|work> and NEVER pull aggro
<A-KO|work> unless the tanks died or something
<Luqid_> for every 250,000 damage our best geared rogue does, the rest of the rogues do 200-220, hunters do 180-230, mages do 170-240
<Luqid_> but he's the one on top every time
<Amante> Other cl***es are getting pretty close, though
<A-KO|work> Luqid_ : we used to have a rogue liek that, we recently recruited 2 more rogues that are up there with him. He's now 3rd on the list, lol.
<djben> [17:03] <Amante> Rogue isn't guaranteed highest DPS anymore. Can they get it? Sometimes. But other cl***es are enroaching on that territory now
<djben> you're on crack
<djben> the mage is supposed to be highest DPs
<Luqid_> lol
<Amante> Heh
<djben> the rogue has that spot right now basically.
<Amante> No, the rogue is supposed to be the highest single target DPS, bar none
<djben> and you're complaining that other cl***es are...encroaching o nit?
<Luqid_> doesn't happen unless they all have ridiculous +dmg gear
<djben> bull****.
<djben> you are wrong
<djben> that was SUPPOSED To be the mage
<Amante> The mage is supposed to be comparable (which it IS, but not as high), but with the advantages of range, buffs, conjured items, and of course, AoEs
<djben> and it IS if the mage is wtfridiculously geared
<djben> the mage is supposd to be highest, amante
<djben> in most cases, it isnt
<Amante> Bull****
<djben> i suggest you go read your WoW manual
<Amante> Explain this to me
<djben> chill out for a bit
<MuppetWar> he wants rogues to have vastly supior damage, crowd control, and buffs. I dont think we need to take this any further.
<djben> and come back
<Luqid_> the only thing that mages have better than anyone else is insta AE
<Luqid_> :[
<djben> amante, go read yer manual
<djben> have a cup of tea
<djben> sit down for a bit
<djben> then come back and apologize
<Luqid_> granted, i have seen 12,000 dps aeing
<djben> just calm down. Im not trying to offend you
<Luqid_> but try and aoe the domo fight
<Luqid_> heh
<A-KO|work> or the vael fight :/
<A-KO|work> vael says it all :(
<TseTse> ahh, i see, it's another "wtf mages were supposed to be the top dps... always.... no matter what..." argument
<TseTse> i love those
<djben> its in the manual =)
<djben> aka set in stone
<A-KO|work> TseTse : no, it's one of those "nerf rogues" arguments
<Luqid_> haven't been to bwl and only a little in zg
<djben> *rofl*
<Luqid_> i can't play on my comp anymore
<djben> MuppetWar - he also doesnt have a wow manual
<Stimpen> palas has the highest dps! everyone know that!
<TseTse> i find most mages stop *****ing when they get proper gear and respec as needed
<TseTse> go figure
<Luqid_> it just kills wow after loadinng :/
<djben> i think he bought an account
<Stimpen> its in the manual
<djben> =)
<Amante> Oh, I HAVE one
<Amante> It's buried in a closet somewhere
<Amante> Is the official site good enough?
<djben> you dont know much about the game =D
<djben> perhaps
<Luqid_> i've spent an epic mount's worth of money trying respecs
<djben> rogues were supposed to only hope to 'approach' the damage of the mage
<djben> dont argue with me dude
<djben> DONT
<djben> argue with blizzard.
<Amante> Okay, you tell me THIS then
<djben> this isnt the time or place, there are forums for you.
<A-KO|work> Amante probably did buy a rogue online
<A-KO|work> lol
<djben> no, i cant tell you anything, all i can do is recite how the game 'should' be.
<A-KO|work> after hearing how "ungodly awesome they are"
<Amante> Okay
<TseTse> and last time i checked, the manual wasnt that explicit and wasnt a ****in design doc =)
<Amante> I'll rephrase
<djben> tsetse - for people who chose their cl***es based on the descriptiosn they read, it should be accurate =)
<djben> amante
<djben> had you ever seen broodlord, or vale?
<djben> vaell?
<A-KO|work> TseTse : My argument isn't that rogues shouldn't do a ton of damage, my argument is how it's delivered. They should offload rogue damage from instant up-front attacks and make it an "over time" thing
<djben> ragnaros perhaps?
<djben> even onyxia?
<TseTse> what does the manual say, precisely, about mages? i have no idea where mine is
<A-KO|work> TseTse : if the damage in the fight was shifted to rogues to do melee damage OVER TIME
<Amante> Why 'should' mage be the most damaging? Even leaving out all the extra stuff they have like teleports, conjured items, and buffs, when you get down to it, mage is good damage from range. Rogue is good damage up close. Why, in theory OR in execution, would a cl*** that does damage from RANGE (an obvious advantage) be designed to be inherently more damaging overall than the cl*** that does it UP CLOSE (disadvantage).
<A-KO|work> it'd be good
<djben> that the mage is supposed to be top damage, bar none.
<A-KO|work> Amante : rogues have instant high attacks with 70% chances to crit
<TseTse> djben, exact quotes. i dont remember that ever being said
<A-KO|work> mages have tops 20-25% chance to crit
<djben> rogues can approach the single target damage of the mage, but that should be it.
<A-KO|work> and require casting
<TseTse> and it certainly doesnt imply "no matter what"
<djben> tsetse - you arent worth the time
<djben> nor is amante
<Amante> Rogue should EXCEED the single target damage of the mage
<Amante> Single target damage is all they do
<Amante> They have NOTHING ELSE
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