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<Windrose> rindolf: even if my lie will prevent my friend from harming himself?
<rindolf> Windrose: how so?
<rindolf> Windrose: well if your friend is going to commit suicide you can lie to prevent him from doing that.
<Windrose> rindolf: and then I'd be honest?
<rindolf> Windrose: yes.
<Windrose> rindolf: in English, 'honest' usually means "truthful and sincere". This doesn't seem to match up.
<sh1mmer> Windrose I'm not sure I would agree with that
<rindolf> Windrose: there is such a thing as consequentalism.
<sh1mmer> that's the problem with English, many of the words are generic and inprecise
<rindolf> Windrose: not just sincere.
<rindolf> Windrose: it also means someone who doesn't commit any crimes.
<rindolf> Windrose: if I stole something then I acted dishonestly.
<Windrose> sh1mmer: well, it's the OED definition *shrugs*
<sh1mmer> hence the phrase 'brutally honest'
<sh1mmer> honesty which is hurtful
<Windrose> rindolf: but in your view, you could steal something from the right reasons and be honest?
<rindolf> Windrose: if I stole from the oppressor (like Robin Hood) then it may be considered honest.
<Windrose> rindolf: what if I stole from another, regular, human being?
<sh1mmer> Windrose, opps. I think I misread that whole conversation. I am agreeing with you, not rindolf.
<Windrose> rindolf: aka ... if I steal the food of the table of my neighbour and his children, to feed my -own- children, would I be honest?
<rindolf> Windrose: no, you'll act dishonestly.
<rindolf> Windrose: you should support yourself.
<rindolf> Every person should.
<sh1mmer> what if you stole from someone who had more than they needed?
<rindolf> sh1mmer: it's still would be dishonesty.
<sh1mmer> actually no.
<sh1mmer> Stealing has nothing to do with dishonest
<rindolf> sh1mmer: I don't justify stealing from the rich.
<sh1mmer> y
<kirun> This is a bizarre definition of "honest", which I see as more meaning "truthful" than "morally correct"
<rindolf> sh1mmer: yes, it does.
<sh1mmer> not at all
<sh1mmer> Honesty just defines if you admit it or not
<sh1mmer> Oxymoronic as it sounds you can be an honest thief.
<Treatz> Using CSS how do I position two DIVs to take up equal sides inside of another Div?
<sh1mmer> Windrose, do you know where tidy keeps it configs?
<Treatz> Niether of them are aligned with the top of the page
<Windrose> I feel like noting that I don't really -care- one way or another; I just have an instinctive, negative, reacting towards people who dare suggest they can define -my- morality ... though, they are brave.
<sh1mmer> Treatz I don't understand what you are asking
<rindolf> Honesty: 2 a : fairness and straightforwardness of conduct b : adherence to the facts : SINCERITY
<Treatz> Like a table column
<Treatz> How do I position two div's in alignment with the top of the page, when they need to sit next to each other?
<sh1mmer> rindolf, but you are making the ***umption that all theft include an element of deception
<Treatz> <div1> <div2> .. instead of
<rindolf> Hmmm.. straightforwardness. Interesting. In Hebrew, honesty is "Yosher" which means "Straightness"
<Treatz> <div1>
<Treatz> .....<div2>
<sh1mmer> float one?
<sh1mmer> set float:left on div1
<sh1mmer> just be aware any margin on a floated div can get doubled on some versions of ie
<sh1mmer> I'm sure google will give some page with more details on that
<Windrose> sh1mmer: hmm ... not quite sure ...
<rindolf> . HONESTY implies a refusal to lie, steal, or deceive in any way.
<rindolf> http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=honesty
<Windrose> rindolf: so according to -that-, which is a US English dictionary afaik btw, you can't be honest -and- lie?
<doc|home> seems fair to me
<sh1mmer> I don't trust dictionaries online
<sh1mmer> didn't anyone else read the aricle about why wikipedia has issues, and about how many sites just quote the random crap people write on it
<rindolf> Windrose: there's tempoary honesty and there's consequential honesty.
<Windrose> sh1mmer: yup.
<JDigital> Honesty, as far as I know, means not lying or deciving.
<sh1mmer> hehe
<JDigital> I don't know if stealing counts as dishonesty.
<Windrose> rindolf: but that's not quite what we discussed earlier.
<doc|home> stealing does, but filesharing is not stealing, stealing requires someone loses something they own.
<Darien> it's true
<Windrose> I'd agree that filesharing isn't stealing.
<doc|home> that being the person who is giving it.
<Darien> filesharing is infringement
<sh1mmer> doc|home but surely taking something from someone else can be done in many ways
<Windrose> Darien: why?
<JDigital> It's only stealing in half the sense of the word.
<Darien> Windrose: why what?
<Windrose> Darien: why is filesharing infringement?
<sh1mmer> if I walk up to you with a big stick beat three shades of crap out of you and nick all your stuff I'm not being dishonest
<Darien> well not *all* filesharing
<Windrose> No ...
<sh1mmer> im just beating the poop out of you and taking all your crap
<doc|home> sh1mmer: not really. it still requires that someone loses it.
<Darien> but sharing files which the copyright does not allow is infringement
<sh1mmer> what has that got to do with honesty?
<Darien> e.g. downloading the latest Britney Spears album
<Windrose> Now, if you get a an album of music that I've spent time creating and would like some compensation for, then that is infringement ...
<doc|home> sh1mmer: it's hardly an honest living, is it? :)
<sh1mmer> and fyi filesharing causes someone to loose their profit margin
<kirun> Downloading the latest Britney album is distasteful, not dishonest :)
<sh1mmer> only in the common vanacular, that ***umes that someone would deny they steal
<Darien> sh1mmer: no it doesn't
<doc|home> sh1mmer: the record companies, who lets face it, I would rather not give money to than here a band.
<Darien> it causes someone to fail to gain profit
<doc|home> *hear
<Darien> that's not the same thing
<Windrose> Darien: it might.
<sh1mmer> if you went to africa i am sure there are plenty of gun toting bandits who are happy to say how they like stealing from rich white tourists
<Darien> if I don't give you five dollars, I'm not stealing five dollars from you
<doc|home> Windrose: no, you're expecting I would buy that album
<Darien> when I copy music, no one loses anything directly
<Windrose> doc|home: ah, but here's where it gets complicated. If I make an album, and -you- want to listen to it, I want some compensation ...
<sh1mmer> doc|Home I happen to work for the second largest company to sell music on the internet (after apple) so I know this topic rather well
<Darien> when I fail to pay you for your music that I copied, you don't lose any money, you just fail to gain that money
<JDigital> When you copy music, the retailer does not lose UNLESS you would have purchased it otherwise.
<Darien> allofmp3? napster?
<sh1mmer> none of the above
<crimson_penguin> wow... you guys are still talking about this?
<Windrose> Darien: ... unless noone else bought it either.
<doc|home> Windrose: and that would be perfectly fine, but if I have issues with that company I'm not forced to buy it from them (don't confuse that with it being 'ok' for me to acquire a copy elsewhere, that's not what I'm saying)
<JDigital> If I download a hundred thousand dollars worth of music, there's no way I can have caused $100,000 of damage to the
<sh1mmer> we are b2b so you won't have heard of us
<myarray> Darien, the company that markets that music loses some extra money, the artist might not lose anything
<JDigital> oops
<Windrose> doc|home: ah, but that's entirely different - I quite agree with you on that matter.
<sh1mmer> JDigital unless you share it...
<Darien> no, no one loses anything directly
<Windrose> myarray: ... nor gain anything either.
<JDigital> If I download a hundred thousand dollars worth of music, there's no way I can have caused $100,000 of damage to the music industry, since there's no way I could have purchased $100,000 of music.
<myarray> Windrose, yeah
<Windrose> Darien: but the artist might never -gain- anything either, and here's the problem.
<sh1mmer> sure, but it's the same deal with patent infringement
<Darien> Windrose: oh, I agree entirely
<myarray> Darien, the company might lose some profits
<Darien> myarray: no, they won't
<Darien> they just won't gain as much profits as they would have if I'd bought it
<sh1mmer> if someone takes your patent and makes stuff from it and sells it you could argue that if they hadn't done that you might have sold less units
<myarray> Darien, while if the copying is stopped, the company might gain some profits
<Darien> myarray: yes, they might
<doc|home> that's why I think a whole new business model is required. Give the album away, then charge more for concerts. god knows we're getting screwed on them anyway
<Darien> probably would, actually
<sh1mmer> the point is you are using someone else's IP without permission. period.
<sh1mmer> whether you argee with IP law is a different issue.
<Darien> exactly
<Windrose> doc|home: that's -not- a good option for many artists, and it -only- works on music.
<Darien> but people don't realize WHY it's wrong
<Darien> they think oh, it's stealing! no it's not, no one loses anything! it's a victimless crime!
<noss> so is printing money.
<Windrose> Darien: no, it's not. It might seem that way, as long as we don't look further than the "evil" companies, but someone ultimately spent alot of effort making that intellectual stuff.
<sh1mmer> I happen to disagree with patent law, and the application of it by some people (including the labels my company has to deal with) but that doesn't mean I don't recognise file sharing removes someone money
<Darien> Windrose: I agree
<Darien> Windrose: I should have wrapped that whole line in quotes
<doc|home> Windrose: I'm only talking about music. But yes, that's the best option for artists. one sec, I need to find a link.
<Windrose> ... and the silly guy at the corner store want -money- for his bread.
<Darien> they think "oh, it's stealing! no it's not, no one loses anything! it's a victimless crime!"
<Darien> and that's the distinction that people fail to make
<myarray> i guess if it's not human basic needs, you can say it's victimless crime'
<doc|home> Darien: that being that you're expecting I'd buy the supertramp discography. I wouldn't
<Darien> doc|home: I don't recall ever mentioning you
<doc|home> i know. I'm hypothesising :)
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